2016 US Presidential Elections

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Eagle Minded
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jcnporter wrote:
drillkicker wrote:That's strange. I didn't vote for him because of how liberal he seemed. He definitely seems to be trying to appeal more to democrats in the way he presents libertarianism, since he focuses more on his social policy than his fiscal policy. Either way, he isn't a real libertarian and I have no idea how he got the party nomination twice in a row. Hopefully that will change in the next election.


Libertarians are supposed to be liberals, in the true sense of the word, as opposed to how the word is used in US politics. Socially and fiscally liberal and individualist. It's what separates them from Republicans, who are socially conservative and fiscally liberal.
Libertarianism as a concept originally started on the left, although some of the American right seem to have adopted the term. Unfortunately for them the more conservative, Republican right see them as lefties, which is why they get few votes from anyone.


Yeah it's weird because for me libertarianism kinda exists outside the left/right spectrum because it generally challenges the state at a fundamental level (which is why is bugged me even more when Gary Johnson kept describing the movement as 'socially liberal fiscally conservative'). It's super unfortunate the term gets bogged down in right wing politics because like you say the origins of libertarian origins are in the left, I would have least considered voting for a Dem like Bernie or something. Either way, the next four years are gonna be a fucking ride of unseen proportions. Loading up the Tomorrow's Harvest now
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Re: this thread - really?

Can Twoism not even be a safe haven from the big game of charades?
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Boqurant
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Perhaps this is too little too late, but this petition seems to propose that the Electoral College could choose to elect Clinton instead of Trump; it would be nice if our system worked out so that the majority could actually get elect to they president they want (as they are supposedly allowed to in a Democray).

I signed my name for what it's worth. You can view it here:
https://www.change.org/p/electoral-coll ... re_receipt

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Eagle Minded
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adecentman wrote:Perhaps this is too little too late, but this petition seems to propose that the Electoral College could choose to elect Clinton instead of Trump; it would be nice if our system worked out so that the majority could actually get elect to they president they want (as they are supposedly allowed to in a Democray).

I signed my name for what it's worth. You can view it here:
https://www.change.org/p/electoral-coll ... re_receipt


Yeah because change.org petitions ever changed anything.
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Sherbet Head
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adecentman wrote:Perhaps this is too little too late, but this petition seems to propose that the Electoral College could choose to elect Clinton instead of Trump; it would be nice if our system worked out so that the majority could actually get elect to they president they want (as they are supposedly allowed to in a Democray).

I signed my name for what it's worth. You can view it here:
https://www.change.org/p/electoral-coll ... re_receipt


I don't think the solution to Trump (or Brexit) for left-leaning folk is to try and reverse the situation. All that would achieve would be a collective sigh of relief (for some anyway - probably violence for others) and eventually just continue as neo-liberal normal - but the left has been on the wrong path for a while now and I think Trump and Brexit both need to be seen as a wake up call.

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Dayvan Cowboy
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Is this another "the rise of the right is somehow the lefts fault" argument coming because I've almost got a full bingo card

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Sherbet Head
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That argument misses the point. It's not zero sum. The political right represents the establishment, the elite, the ruling class. The political left should be representing everyone else.
There is no 'rise of the right' - they have always been there, effectively in control of the press, able to set the agenda, only really interested in keeping power. The left needs to provide a vision, an alternative. The left and right have fundamentally different ways of , and reasons for, accessing the levers of government.
The left have to be a broad church, provide a positive vision for the 99%, but they'll never convince everyone. The right only need to hold power for the 1%. In this context if the left fails to appeal to enough of the people it should be representing, it loses by default. it is not as simple as 'blame'.

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I chose the perfect time to take a US History class.

Here's a quote from George Washington's farewell presidential speech in which he discusses political parties:

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume."
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Sherbet Head
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MrMessiah wrote:Is this another "the rise of the right is somehow the lefts fault" argument coming because I've almost got a full bingo card


I'd also say that if you mean the rise of nationalism - nationalism isn't a policy or a political view, it is a feeling to be harnessed or encouraged by those who seek power for themselves.
As I see it the left lost involvement in the US presidential race when Bernie was sidelined. Hillary is the establishment right, Trump an upstart of the right, looking to steal power.
Hillary would have done nothing to upset the status quo and ultimately neither will Trump, as he shares the same interests as the establishment.

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Sherbet Head
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adecentman wrote:Perhaps this is too little too late, but this petition seems to propose that the Electoral College could choose to elect Clinton instead of Trump; it would be nice if our system worked out so that the majority could actually get elect to they president they want (as they are supposedly allowed to in a Democray).

I signed my name for what it's worth. You can view it here:
https://www.change.org/p/electoral-coll ... re_receipt

I recommend taking a look at this explanation about why that will not happen.

It should also be noted that the popular vote still hasn't been completely counted yet and considering how close the two candidates are it's very possible that Trump actually did win the popular vote. Either way, the electoral college exists for a good reason and those who wrote the Constitution didn't just include things like that for nothing.

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Happy Cycler
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The really insidious thing about this election is the emergence of the so-called 'alt-right'. Rather than signing petitions, which are palliative at best, lefties should be thinking about how to recapture the progressive narrative because this new political faction are dangerous.
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Nothing insidious about the alt-right. The alt-right is actually the only portion of the population that hasn't lost their sanity. Take a look at what has been going down in Sweden. With the consent of "feminists" and "progressives", one of the most developed nations in the world has turned into the rape capital of Europe in record speed and is poised to become Europe's first third-world country soon. I hope you are satisfied with the result because its downfall cannot be reversed. The left's smearing of the right, rife with Godwins, attempts at censorship and insults to their intelligence and morals, doesn't work anymore, as it has become evident that progressives' logic just doesn't compute and is in fact detrimental to everybody's wellbeing in the long run.
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That post saddens me Guido. It's hard to accept that someone, anyone, could think like this, let alone someone I've respected on this forum for a long time.

I guess that's a microcosm of the world at large though. Views are polarised. Each side anathema to the other.

Very, very sad and not a little upset frankly.
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Sherbet Head
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Guido wrote:Nothing insidious about the alt-right. The alt-right is actually the only portion of the population that hasn't lost their sanity. Take a look at what has been going down in Sweden. With the consent of "feminists" and "progressives", one of the most developed nations in the world has turned into the rape capital of Europe in record speed and is poised to become Europe's first third-world country soon. I hope you are satisfied with the result because its downfall cannot be reversed. The left's smearing of the right, rife with Godwins, attempts at censorship and insults to their intelligence and morals, doesn't work anymore, as it has become evident that progressives' logic just doesn't compute and is in fact detrimental to everybody's wellbeing in the long run.


Actually I regret using the terms left and right in my posts - the terms are too loaded and polarising. In real life people's views don't fit into simple boxes. Unfortunately most internet debate ends up at this lowest common denominator, with people entrenching themselves in simplistic positions, using information from unverified sources that appeal to their egos, allowing themselves to believe that they are more logical or smarter than another group. It all becomes one big circle jerk of half-baked nonsense, no matter what 'side' you're on.
To make statements as big and specific as you've made here you'd need to be able to follow through with facts and evidence based on a range of sources, aware of the dangers of confirmation bias, and not just be parroting an unverified opinion you read on a website.

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Mexicola wrote:That post saddens me Guido. It's hard to accept that someone, anyone, could think like this, let alone someone I've respected on this forum for a long time.

I guess that's a microcosm of the world at large though. Views are polarised. Each side anathema to the other.

Very, very sad and not a little upset frankly.

Can you explain what's sad about it ? It doesn't seem to me like an inaccurate or controversial thing to say, thought I would dissent that the alt-right in general isn't noticeably more sane than its opponents.

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drillkicker wrote:
Mexicola wrote:That post saddens me Guido. It's hard to accept that someone, anyone, could think like this, let alone someone I've respected on this forum for a long time.

I guess that's a microcosm of the world at large though. Views are polarised. Each side anathema to the other.

Very, very sad and not a little upset frankly.

Can you explain what's sad about it ? It doesn't seem to me like an inaccurate or controversial thing to say, thought I would dissent that the alt-right in general isn't noticeably more sane than its opponents.


How do you know that it's accurate?

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drillkicker wrote:
Mexicola wrote:That post saddens me Guido. It's hard to accept that someone, anyone, could think like this, let alone someone I've respected on this forum for a long time.

I guess that's a microcosm of the world at large though. Views are polarised. Each side anathema to the other.

Very, very sad and not a little upset frankly.

Can you explain what's sad about it ? It doesn't seem to me like an inaccurate or controversial thing to say, thought I would dissent that the alt-right in general isn't noticeably more sane than its opponents.


Of course it doesn't seem inaccurate to you. You've made your views clear on several occasions DK.
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Happy Cycler
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Guido, I really don't know how to respond to your post. You seem to be saying that we need to appeal to reason when talking about social issues, but then you egregiously use your own opinion as fact. I am not trying to insult anyone when I say I find the 'alt-right' insidious. Godwin's Law or not, it's not inaccurate to say some exponents of the 'alt-right' are clearly fascist and certain ideas which are strongly associated with the movement (white supremacy, antisemitism, aggressive nativism etc.) seem to be growing in popularity and touted as a solution for intractable and deep rooted problems. That is what I find worrying.
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Dayvan Cowboy
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Guido wrote:Nothing insidious about the alt-right. The alt-right is actually the only portion of the population that hasn't lost their sanity. Take a look at what has been going down in Sweden. With the consent of "feminists" and "progressives", one of the most developed nations in the world has turned into the rape capital of Europe in record speed and is poised to become Europe's first third-world country soon. I hope you are satisfied with the result because its downfall cannot be reversed. The left's smearing of the right, rife with Godwins, attempts at censorship and insults to their intelligence and morals, doesn't work anymore, as it has become evident that progressives' logic just doesn't compute and is in fact detrimental to everybody's wellbeing in the long run.


Just to not let this far right meme go unchallenged, no, Sweden is not the rape capital of Europe. In the mid 2000's it changed the way it recorded rape statistics which led to a bump in the numbers over the following years for its own historic trends and differences between it and other European countries make its stats look high in comparison there too. Naturally it's been siezed upon by the far right and blamed on immigration and then parroted across the Internet by people who should know better.

Edit: and while I'm at it, anyone putting feminists in scare-quotes as if the fight for equality AND equity for women is something to be derided can fucking do one.

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