3/4 vs 8/8 in Jacquard Causeway

[JESUSANDHOES]

Title explains it, check the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqBY2iB1ATE

tl;dw Jacquard Causeway seems to occupy both 3/4 and 8/8 time signatures. I slowed it down on tape and realized it's actually not ONLY in triplet time: it can also be counted in terms of 8/8 time.

The track that I mention in the video for download with an 8/8 metronome is available here:

http://www.filedropper.com/j14239

I'm pretty sure most people who'd be downloading this already own the track, but if you don't : buy this band's music.

Peace

[Generalchesty]

It's called a polyrhythm when multiple different time signatures are used simultaneously

[Negamuse]

Yeah I've said before but once you hear the 4/4 (or 8/8) hi hat in this you can never unhear it.

[Cupz]

Actually, try this in your favourite sequencer:

Make a normal beat pattern.
Reverse all the seperate instruments.
Export entire pattern.
Import in audacity (or whatever) and reverse.

You'll get that weird swing effect on the snares. I did that allot on my dropkots record.

[Cupz]

PS. The video is a bit redundant.

[JESUSANDHOES]

Actually, try this in your favourite sequencer:

Make a normal beat pattern.
Reverse all the seperate instruments.
Export entire pattern.
Import in audacity (or whatever) and reverse.

You'll get that weird swing effect on the snares. I did that allot on my dropkots record.

Nice, that's a cool trick.

Sorry if it got redundant there at the end; I like getting into details (and beer). Thanks for watching.

[Waterbagel]

Polyrhythms are one of my favorite things in music. Claves are often used in polyrhythms (they're usually a 3/2 rhythm on top of a 2/2 or.. you know. whatever).

[thepastinsidepressant]

such a forward thinking track, in my top 3 off the album. love the bass line, brilliant song writing.

[marqueski]

Actually its not a polyrhythm, wiki defines a polyrhythm as the simultaneous use of two or more conflicting rhythms, that are not readily perceived as deriving from one another, or as simple manifestations of the same meter. Meaning two or more conflicting rhythms played on top of each other. The song is actually a hemiola, which Merriam-Webster defines as a musical rhythmic alteration in which six equal notes may be heard as two groups of three or three groups of two. Basically when you have a song thats written in 4/4 but has a 3/4 groove to it. An example would be a song by Charlie Parker called Billie's Bounce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4mRaEzwTYo

[nick47]

When the album first came out everyone was loving all over jacquard, and I thought it was the shittiest song on the album. The "snare" annoyed the shit out of me.

Now I cant get enough. Its so different and familiar at the same time. It just kind of lulls along, not really following any sort of tried-and-true path (in my mind)

I think that song is the key to the album.

[Fireal420]

some of the tracks on the album sound mechanical to me. as if everything is being done at a certain time for a reason.

jacquard causeway and split your infinities are perfect examples. the music almost sounds like a machine.



i still think there is more going on with this album. i dont know if it needs to be slowed down, or sped up. or somehow blended together like a da vinci painting.


i just feel like tomorrows harvest has some sort of underlying current to it that still hasnt been figured out. regardless, its a great album.

[Jonse]

I think the "conflicting parts" of that song are kind of just "whatever the fuck/4". Kind of like this, or this (both 4/4 ultimately but contain the same sort of conflicting elements) except those are not the worst thing on their albums and I feel JC is the worst song on TH, saying that with the filler that is Collapse in mind.

In the same sense, JC is just 3/4 ultimately.

They obviously just made the whole thing in one take while drunk. Probably had a lot of fun.

Also, these are polyrhythmic (or contain polyrhythm segments/components - specifically the first with its intro line - second has it all over the place) songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z_NvVMUcG8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BUWyTPiceA

Doesn't quite fall into the same category.

[Cupz]

who cares about the measure anyway, that song is all about the delay.

[JESUSANDHOES]

In the same sense, JC is just 3/4 ultimately.

I disagree.

The internal rhythm of JC when sampled down an octave does not seem to be in 3/4. I hear a straight 8/4 groove with a bit of swing. This would seem to imply that the 3/4 feel at normal speed is an "effect" of how those elements are placed into the 16th note grid. Either that, or BoC happened to compose something at normal speed that became easy for me to recognize as another rhythm at half-speed.


Also, to call Pyramid Song "ultimately 4/4" because a full loop adds up to 32 counts is to miss the internal rhythm of the song, which is playing around with how to count itself. It can be counted as a mixture of 3/4 and 4/4 bars. Here's a visualization of the rhythm. Each set of "123" or "1234" represents a piano chord, whose length lasts either 3 or 4 16th notes, respectively:

123 123 1234 = 10
123 123 123 123 1234 = 16
123 123 = 6

I do think it's an interesting comparison and definitely agree that Pyramid Song and JC have a lot of similarity with respect to "playing around with how to count itself", on an internal level of scale. And interestingly, both can be counted more than one way... And both involve the 10 / 6 subdivision.

But I think it's myopic to look at these songs from a purely macro-level scale, saying they're "ultimately 3/4" or "ultimately 4/4" when micro-level rhythmic deviations can shed some interesting light on the composition as well.

Peace

[Jonse]

In the same sense, JC is just 3/4 ultimately.

I disagree.

The internal rhythm of JC when sampled down an octave does not seem to be in 3/4. I hear a straight 8/4 groove with a bit of swing. This would seem to imply that the 3/4 feel at normal speed is an "effect" of how those elements are placed into the 16th note grid. Either that, or BoC happened to compose something at normal speed that became easy for me to recognize as another rhythm at half-speed.


Also, to call Pyramid Song "ultimately 4/4" because a full loop adds up to 32 counts is to miss the internal rhythm of the song, which is playing around with how to count itself. It can be counted as a mixture of 3/4 and 4/4 bars. Here's a visualization of the rhythm. Each set of "123" or "1234" represents a piano chord, whose length lasts either 3 or 4 16th notes, respectively:

123 123 1234 = 10
123 123 123 123 1234 = 16
123 123 = 6

I do think it's an interesting comparison and definitely agree that Pyramid Song and JC have a lot of similarity with respect to "playing around with how to count itself", on an internal level of scale. And interestingly, both can be counted more than one way... And both involve the 10 / 6 subdivision.

But I think it's myopic to look at these songs from a purely macro-level scale, saying they're "ultimately 3/4" or "ultimately 4/4" when micro-level rhythmic deviations can shed some interesting light on the composition as well.

Peace

Nah.

And Pyramid Song has little to nothing in relation to JC. Keep overanalyzing things if you'd like.

[JESUSANDHOES]

In the same sense, JC is just 3/4 ultimately.

I disagree.

The internal rhythm of JC when sampled down an octave does not seem to be in 3/4. I hear a straight 8/4 groove with a bit of swing. This would seem to imply that the 3/4 feel at normal speed is an "effect" of how those elements are placed into the 16th note grid. Either that, or BoC happened to compose something at normal speed that became easy for me to recognize as another rhythm at half-speed.


Also, to call Pyramid Song "ultimately 4/4" because a full loop adds up to 32 counts is to miss the internal rhythm of the song, which is playing around with how to count itself. It can be counted as a mixture of 3/4 and 4/4 bars. Here's a visualization of the rhythm. Each set of "123" or "1234" represents a piano chord, whose length lasts either 3 or 4 16th notes, respectively:

123 123 1234 = 10
123 123 123 123 1234 = 16
123 123 = 6

I do think it's an interesting comparison and definitely agree that Pyramid Song and JC have a lot of similarity with respect to "playing around with how to count itself", on an internal level of scale. And interestingly, both can be counted more than one way... And both involve the 10 / 6 subdivision.

But I think it's myopic to look at these songs from a purely macro-level scale, saying they're "ultimately 3/4" or "ultimately 4/4" when micro-level rhythmic deviations can shed some interesting light on the composition as well.

Peace

Nah.

And Pyramid Song has little to nothing in relation to JC. Keep overanalyzing things if you'd like.

Dude, you've got to be fucking kidding me.

You just posted a video that confirms everything I just said about Pyramid Song's rhythmic structure.

Look back at the video you just posted. See how the visualized piano notes move between happening every 3 8th notes, and every 4 8th notes? Those piano notes are 100% isomorphic to the textual representation I provided in my last post:

123 123 1234
123 123 123 123 1234
123 123

I'm not disputing that the song can be counted in "4/4". Though, I will admit, technically in my last post when I said

It can be counted as a mixture of 3/4 and 4/4 bars

I should have said it's a mixture of 3/8 and 4/8. So in that sense, I could understand your confusion. But regardless, the video you posted agrees with my previous post that a full loop of that song adds up to 32 counts, made up of specific groups of 3 and 4.

To not mention the internal shifts in rhythm, on a more localized level of scale, is to completely miss everything that's unique about the rhythmic structure of that song.

Same goes with JC. I'm not trying to make a profound connection between those two songs.. Though, there are certain similarities in fluid movement between 10, 6, and 16. So, I don't know why you'd be so absolutist about there not being any connection whatsoever. I'd also like to remind you that you're the one who mentioned a connection to begin with.

It seems to me that you are under-analyzing...

[Waterbagel]

..so yeah.. jacquard causeway really grew on me..

[Jonse]

No, I posted a video that showing the time signature and rhythm of the song being counted in 4/4, going by the ride cymbal and having nothing to do with the piano (which you're off on, by the way). There's like a hundred different ways to count contorted songs like this, then there's the most practical way to count something so you can use that information. That's I why I say "ultimately 4/4", as it most practically can be counted (might want to look into what the word "ultimately" means in this context - second definition from a google search is this particular usage). It also has nothing to do with JC whatsoever rhythmically.

I was with Cupz here and now I'm past his threshold probably. Not only is your point redundant, your attempt at trying to make something into a bigger deal than it is is borderline embarrassing. My first post was a point regarding the song from an audible perspective - i.e. what the song sounds like - you turned it into something overly obtuse and technical regarding something that (admittedly) can be counted in many ways with 4/4 being entirely valid, which in my experience is akin to OCD behavior over numbers in music, so yeah...don't really care.

Keep overanalyzing things and talking about other peoples' "confusion" as much as you want. I need my daily laugh.

[JESUSANDHOES]

No, I posted a video that showing the time signature and rhythm of the song being counted in 4/4, going by the ride cymbal and having nothing to do with the piano.

Check the intro of that clip. Radiohead's drummer Phil Selway hits the ride cymbal every time there's a piano chord.

If you agree with that video, then you agree with me: Pyramid Song is based on bars of 3/8 and 4/8. It cannot be counted 100 ways meaningfully. The video's (and my) representation is presumably how the bandmembers count it, because it makes the most sense. Phil Selway is playing a swung beat around that rhythm, and it all ends up being a loop of 32 8th notes.

Regarding Jacquard Causeway: calling my point "redundant" simply means that I restated myself.. Sure, but that has nothing to do with whether what I said is true and can be independently verified.

My point is that I find it interesting that the rhythm seems to occupy both a 3/4 feel at normal speed, and a swung 8/8 feel at a slower speed.

And you know what? I enjoyed thinking about that. I like the quantitative analysis of music. Of course, it's also very important to consider more subjective states of mind, like mood... Music composition requires both...

But, I won't have time for this site anymore soon, so I'm just gonna quit posting.

Bye, Twoism.

[Jonse]

No, I posted a video that showing the time signature and rhythm of the song being counted in 4/4, going by the ride cymbal and having nothing to do with the piano.

Check the intro of that clip. Radiohead's drummer Phil Selway hits the ride cymbal every time there's a piano chord.

If you agree with that video, then you agree with me: Pyramid Song is based on bars of 3/8 and 4/8. It cannot be counted 100 ways meaningfully. The video's (and my) representation is presumably how the bandmembers count it, because it makes the most sense. Phil Selway is playing a swung beat around that rhythm, and it all ends up being a loop of 32 8th notes.

Regarding Jacquard Causeway: calling my point "redundant" simply means that I restated myself.. Sure, but that has nothing to do with whether what I said is true and can be independently verified.

My point is that I find it interesting that the rhythm seems to occupy both a 3/4 feel at normal speed, and a swung 8/8 feel at a slower speed.

And you know what? I enjoyed thinking about that. I like the quantitative analysis of music. Of course, it's also very important to consider more subjective states of mind, like mood... Music composition requires both...

But, I won't have time for this site anymore soon, so I'm just gonna quit posting.

Bye, Twoism.

I do not agree with you.

That song is ultimately in 4/4. I'm not counting it by the ride cymbal or piano notes - I'm counting it in the most basic way possible. I don't know what is so difficult to grasp about this. It doesn't mean I'm right, it doesn't mean you're wrong, it doesn't mean either of us agree with each other. It means I'm not going to look at every single possible way you can count that song.

If you wish to quit posting because someone does not agree with you, go on, be my guest.

All I've noticed from you is that you formulate your words in a really condescending manner, which is something that's very apparent because I've had that same issue a lot in my life and am not ignorant to the fact that it may come off like that right now from me. It serves to demonstrate you believe the person on the other end has no idea what they're talking about while ironically failing to understand that person's comment on your end. The redundancy here is that you keep persisting with this idea to someone who doesn't care because I've read what you're saying and it doesn't really matter. You also apparently do not understand hyperbole.

I simply came in here to make a point about JC, about it being all over the place because frankly it is. It's a mess. Whether one likes that mess or not is up to one's self.

Though I would choose not to assume what you do/do not know, from what you've stated I have no reason to believe you're listening to what anybody is telling you. It's nothing personal, you just just seem to have overlooked my entire point to talk about the various ways Pyramid Song can be counted, and I could drag my buddy who brags about how he studied music theory for four years relentlessly in here if you want to have that discussion but he probably wouldn't care/come to a less convoluted conclusion, nor would it matter because you're purportedly leaving Twoism. Aww, just when I was looking forward to seeing some of your mood-driven musical compositions.

If there was anything technical about what I posted originally, it was regarding polyrhythms and wasn't directed at you but at the people who were discussing them and what constitutes a polyrhythm.


TL;DR - to reiterate: Nah.