____twoism

So I've been thinking about this whole TH palindrome business and it being centred around Collapse.

Sorry if it's already been suggested, but is Collapse the true end of the album/narrative?

On my first few listenings I envisaged that Collapse was the point where an apocalyptic event (that had occurred in the first half of the album) really took its toll and killed civilisation, hence the title and the bleakness of the track

To me, the second half of the album was about the aftermath. Cold Earth was a fly over of the now barren landscape. New Seeds was perhaps that glimmer of hope before everything was dashed in Semena Mertvykh.

Before I carry on, obviously this is just my interpretation and everyone has a different one. One of the reason's we love BoC, right?

However, with the palindromic nature of the album in mind could it be that the story stops at Collapse? In an interview in the Guardian, Sandison said of the tone of the album:

It's not post-apocalyptic so much as it is about an inevitable stage that lies in front of us.

I'm wondering if the inevitability of our future is reflected in the fact that whatever happens, we're headed for collapse (human nature), and that is represented by the album having two starts, Gemini and Semena Mertvykh, and only one end; Collapse.

One path to collapse follows tracks 1->2->3->4->5->6->7->8->9. The other path to collapse follows tracks 17->16->15->14->13->12->11->10->9. Others here and elsewhere have suggested that Semena Mertvykh sounds like a starting point rather than an end, after all.

There is no post-apocalypse in this tale, just apocalypse, and whichever way we head, we're headed towards it. The path to collapse is different but whichever path is taken there are common features, perhaps suggested by the partnering of tracks.

I'm just throwing ideas around and I highly doubt there's much truth in this, but if there is then what's the narative going from Semena Mertvykh to Collapse? Not a clue, but perhaps New Seeds in this context literally refers to GM crops and our manipulation of our environment? Semena Mertvykh (seeds/death = blight?)-> Come to Dust (climate change/scorched earth/starvation?)-> New Seeds (Engineered tolerant crops) -> ????. Like I say, I really have no clue.

Anyway, enough waffling from me, sorry if this idea's already been put forward, and thanks for enduring my brain vomit!

I actually have been playing with the same idea and tried the 1, 17, 2, 16… format which sounds good, I also tried folding the album in two, with overlapping tracks and reversed later tracks ending up to track 9, sounds awful for the moment but still worth the experimentation in my view

Or is it a double album as an idea thrown about last year suggests, with Collapse as the final track for both albums LP1 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, LP2 = 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9?

purgruv wrote:Or is it a double album as an idea thrown about last year suggests, with Collapse as the final track for both albums LP1 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, LP2 = 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9?

Yeah, this could well be it. Perhaps they would have liked to do even more permutations all leading to the same ultimate point, but what with the nature of a tracklist being 1-dimensional, you're pretty much stuck with only the two possibilities of forward and reverse....

*Ponders whether BoC will invent the first 2d tracklist/audio media*

Great thinking about the overlaying of tracks! It's a shame it's not sounding great, but it seems like a great avenue of investigation which you could easily imagine unlocking some secrets. Keep us posted

I had a similar thought, 'Collapse' seems to be in many ways the central theme of the album. Given the palindrome, if it runs all the way through the album, it could make sense for Collapse to come after Semena Mertvykh and before Gemini, so the cycle of collapse and rebirth is completed.

As Collapse is the central track, and the album sort of hinges on it, it's the centre of the palindrome, I think it's sort of indicating that 'collapse' is a central idea in the thinking behind the album, with the Owl of Minerva quote from Hegel, Palace Posy/Apocalypse, 'an inevitable stage ahead of us' taken from the Grauniad interview, all this seems to be geared towards the idea that we are coming to the end of our civilisation, and equally so that something lies ahead after that stage.

It's interesting to read about this academic concept of 'collapse'. I have begun to read Jared Diamond's well known book on the subject, and even the documentary style tv adaptation on Youtube seems to have very similar imagery and themes to Tomorrow's Harvest, check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdBSWjxKJOE

Almost like the album fits with the Mayan prophecy after all, but actually with science behind it

collapse plays the same backwards as forwards
if that isn't just the most conclusive proof you need for it being the CENTRE of the record
i really don't know what i can tell you

I've been dying to find the time to play around with this theory, but other stuff is in the way right now.

The palindrome comment really has convinced me that there is something we've missed in a big way. I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but does each track have it's 'twin' that it fits together with in some way? Jacquard Causeway is begging to be mixed together with something - it sounds like a puzzle piece with those rhythms and angular synths.

I really need to start mucking about with those WAV files.

I do think there may be something in the idea of a palindromic track list with Collapse at the centre -- the tracks either side of it mirroring or reflecting each other in linking pairs (also tying into the idea of being 'Gemini twins') with a musical or thematic reference?

We know this is true of 2 & 16 - a reprise as mentioned in the Grauniad article - and sound wise, the style and approach of 1 & 17 both seem to occupy the same ground.

But another interesting pair that comes up within this idea is 5 & 13 - Telepath & Nothing Is Real. Both tracks with spoken word samples. Now in terms of mood they seem to approach from completely opposite sides, but perhaps that's exactly it... What stands out from the discussion of the vocals:

- Telepath's counting appears to faintly echo / repeat at the number 6 to form "666"

- Nothing Is Real has a spoken section that begins by referring to "Jesus"

On opposite sides of Collapse in the track list, that also appear to be literally the reverse / mirror of each other thematically - which seems like a compelling example to support the basic idea.

seanandcandy wrote:collapse plays the same backwards as forwards
if that isn't just the most conclusive proof you need for it being the CENTRE of the record
i really don't know what i can tell you

Well absolutely - it's slap bang in the middle of the album in absolute terms. I'm not sure if anyone is debating that point, but I'm certainly not .

In fact it's because of it's palindromic nature and that it's in the centre that made me wonder if it's to be approached from both ends in opposite directions. i.e. two narratives of the album, one starting at each end of the album and ending in the centre.

miklatov wrote:

seanandcandy wrote:collapse plays the same backwards as forwards
if that isn't just the most conclusive proof you need for it being the CENTRE of the record
i really don't know what i can tell you

Well absolutely - it's slap bang in the middle of the album in absolute terms. I'm not sure if anyone is debating that point, but I'm certainly not .

In fact it's because of it's palindromic nature and that it's in the centre that made me wonder if it's to be approached from both ends in opposite directions. i.e. two narratives of the album, one starting at each end of the album and ending in the centre.

yes absolutely
i am agreeable to this rationale

Betacord wrote:I do think there may be something in the idea of a palindromic track list with Collapse at the centre -- the tracks either side of it mirroring or reflecting each other in linking pairs (also tying into the idea of being 'Gemini twins') with a musical or thematic reference?

We know this is true of 2 & 16 - a reprise as mentioned in the Grauniad article - and sound wise, the style and approach of 1 & 17 both seem to occupy the same ground.

But another interesting pair that comes up within this idea is 5 & 13 - Telepath & Nothing Is Real. Both tracks with spoken word samples. Now in terms of mood they seem to approach from completely opposite sides, but perhaps that's exactly it... What stands out from the discussion of the vocals:

- Telepath's counting appears to faintly echo / repeat at the number 6 to form "666"

- Nothing Is Real has a spoken section that begins by referring to "Jesus"

On opposite sides of Collapse in the track list, that also appear to be literally the reverse / mirror of each other thematically - which seems like a compelling example to support the basic idea.

This, I like a lot. Tasty tasty mind food

I asked this in another thread but don't think I got a response - has anyone tried listening to the 'twin' tracks in the order 17,1,16,2 etc. ? I ask because apparently listening to them in the forward order is too jarring. I haven't got round to listening to either order myself.

I think most of the comments in this thread are onto something, with Collapse being the inevitable ending. Maybe there are multiple implications within the track listing but I can't help but think we're missing something obvious. Or maybe overanalysing.

miklatov wrote:made me wonder if it's to be approached from both ends in opposite directions. i.e. two narratives of the album, one starting at each end of the album and ending in the centre.

cool theory which i like.

I have played around with interlocking tracks before and have a couple that have been sat awaiting a finish for a good year. you don't think that Gemini and semena should be overlayed together? Anyone wanna try it? I'm not able right now.

Yeah That's Right wrote:I asked this in another thread but don't think I got a response - has anyone tried listening to the 'twin' tracks in the order 17,1,16,2 etc. ? I ask because apparently listening to them in the forward order is too jarring. I haven't got round to listening to either order myself.

I think most of the comments in this thread are onto something, with Collapse being the inevitable ending. Maybe there are multiple implications within the track listing but I can't help but think we're missing something obvious. Or maybe overanalysing.

I like your idea of alternating towards Collapse (spiralling, perhaps?). I'll give that a go in a mo as I'm nearly at the end of my front->Collapse, end->Collapse listen through.

On that subject, the two threads towards Collapse listening is pretty good. Does feel like two different EPs. Have to say Palace Posy sounds a lot less.... 'surprising'... coming after Split Your Infinities than it does coming after Collapse. Also noticing huge similarities between Sick Times and Sundown on this listen through.

I'll give your idea a try and report back.

I also agree that we're missing something...

As said above I've played with the last tracks all reversed to play at the same time as the first 8 to end with Collapse both forward and reversed, in Audacity it looks something like this :

1
-2
---3
----4
------5
--------6
----------7
-----------8
------------9
-----------R9
---------R10
--------R11
-------R12
------R13
----R14
---R15
--R16
R17

Unfortunately Semena Mertvykh doesnt quite fit in this format, with 39 seconds of over hang into Come to Dust, also it sounds awful!

Work in progress…

Geogandhi wrote:I have played around with interlocking tracks before and have a couple that have been sat awaiting a finish for a good year. you don't think that Gemini and semena should be overlayed together? Anyone wanna try it? I'm not able right now.

This actually isn't TOO bad of an idea... My current copy is encoded in m4a, so neither Audacity nor Ableton are having it.

Geogandhi wrote:I have played around with interlocking tracks before and have a couple that have been sat awaiting a finish for a good year. you don't think that Gemini and semena should be overlayed together? Anyone wanna try it? I'm not able right now.

So I just gave this a try, albeit a rushed one as I'm at work

Mixed Gemini and Semena together as in directly overlaid them -No aligning or tempo changing. Nothing. Just did

$ sox -m Gemini.wav Semena.wav Out.wav

on Ubuntu

Sounded a bit ropey but there could be potential there, perhaps. Some bits seemed to align, others not so much. Really hard to tell though, as Gemini overpowered Semena .This was with both tracks playing forward.

Aw that's a shame. I guess any more tinkering would be going too deep and looking for stuff that isn't there.

Geogandhi wrote:Aw that's a shame. I guess any more tinkering would be going too deep and looking for stuff that isn't there.

Nah, I wouldn't give up based on my 3 minute mucking around. I think there could be potential there - the moods certainly harmonise! Just what I needed, a scarier version of Gemini/Semena

Hopefully someone who's got the proper skills could step in on this one?