This Random Thread

[jcnporter]

I'm not referring to its use by anyone in particular here, but 'utopian' or 'radical' are words often used to exclude and narrow a discussion down to only the concepts that are considered acceptable to the powers that be.
Capitalism has been superb at this, now only discussions on variations of capitalism are seen as 'realistic'. Even extremely long-established and existing concepts such as land taxes (favoured by both Winston Churchill and Adam Smith) and common ownership, have been successfully saddled with with these labels.
Indeed a functioning economy without slave labour was no doubt once considered 'utopian'.
There is a difference between what is unachievable in the short or medium term with our current two party neoliberalism and what can actually work, those in power would prefer that we conflate the two.
I think even the NHS as a universal, free service will be considered a utopian folly in a generation or so, not because it cannot work as a concept, but because the constant chipping away by individualism and capitalism will make it so.

I understand that it could be perceived that using a lexicon like Brand could be seen as actually diminishing/alienating the cause that he preaches, narrowing the conversation to something which is seemingly unattainable/ridiculous to the current situation. Though, I reject that the use of such words actually legitimises the neoliberal/capitalist power structures in general.. people seem to forget that the socio-economic system which Marx describes has never actually been realised (any so called Marxist state of the 20th century onwards is a complete misnomer). So in this sense the Marxist principles which Brand attests to are truly radical, in the genuine sense of the word and I don't see their use as disparaging because they hint at the huge shift required to reach for a greater sense of equality.

It's not that using such words legitimises neoliberalism/capitalism, it's that the words are used by those power structures themselves to attack the credibility of left-wing thought, painting themselves as the rational realists and the left as unrealistic dreamers.
Anarchism is another misused word - it's not really an absence of government/hierarchy/state, but rather an absence of imposed structures - in an anarchy as I understand it, it would be perfectly possible to have a health service, for example, but it would be voluntary, much like the way a union is organised.
I'm not defending Brand, but the arguments against what he's saying are exactly what the establishment want to be said - the Daily Mail, for example, are going to town on him. The problem with Brand is that they're probably right - he doesn't appear to go beyond dreaming and 6th form 'revolutionary' rhetoric.

Last edited by jcnporter on Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[fujee]

I absolutely agree with you, semantics are incredibly diluted in political discussion, especially in the press and wider media in general. My use of those words were used in their technical sense and I didn't intend to throw around terms without consulting their meaning in relation to the topic. I think we have more or less said the same thing, though yours more eloquent and clearer than mine.

Additionally, yes Anarchism is completely misused and having read a lot of Bakunin and Chomsky over the year.. it is clear the word has been completely defiled by the establishment.

[louise]

does anyone have any (legal in the uk) suggestions for helping concentration? im struggling....bad

[vballs]

^^ Meditation? hehe https://theconsciouslife.com/meditation ... ration.htm

[louise]

^^ Meditation? hehe https://theconsciouslife.com/meditation ... ration.htm

who said breathing was overrated

[Waterbagel]

Thanks to a sort of in-joke on another website, I "re-vamped" the infamous 'cloud-to-butt' chrome extension.. Only this time, it turns any instance of the word "fuck" (and several variations on it) into "hoobly boobly".

I keep forgetting I installed it, and reading some threads gets really weird.

Almost kinda wanna make one that just replaces all kinds of profanity with weird stuff. but uhh.. hoobly boobly that

[GH]

[Aerial Boundaries]

I feel like shit.

And I'm starting to get tinnitus, even though my listening isn't that loud.

Why the fuck is this happening?

[IronMark]

I'm not referring to its use by anyone in particular here, but 'utopian' or 'radical' are words often used to exclude and narrow a discussion down to only the concepts that are considered acceptable to the powers that be.
Capitalism has been superb at this, now only discussions on variations of capitalism are seen as 'realistic'. Even extremely long-established and existing concepts such as land taxes (favoured by both Winston Churchill and Adam Smith) and common ownership, have been successfully saddled with with these labels.
Indeed a functioning economy without slave labour was no doubt once considered 'utopian'.
There is a difference between what is unachievable in the short or medium term with our current two party neoliberalism and what can actually work, those in power would prefer that we conflate the two.
I think even the NHS as a universal, free service will be considered a utopian folly in a generation or so, not because it cannot work as a concept, but because the constant chipping away by individualism and capitalism will make it so.

*standing ovation*

[Mexicola]

Just to return to Brand for a second, this is worth a read.

[Aesthetics]

Just to return to Brand for a second, this is worth a read.

It seems like he is a -you-like-him-or-not- kind of person. It's clear that the author doesn't like his ideas.
What's wrong with someone who attacks the system without handing real solutions? At least he is standing up. The more people he reaches with his visions the higher the chance of solutions are imo.
I can't really speak about the politics in the UK but here in Holland we more and more have no say in politics. Even Brussels(EU) force their laws into the Dutch politic system without us to agree. This powerlessness makes me angry and that's why I appreciate all rebels who stand up and fight against the current politic system.

[fujee]

This is pretty much exactly my point and what I was getting at in the first post when I said its the message not the messenger. However poorly presented Brands ideas are and whatever measure of credibility you consider him to have, theoretically his ideas are well established from decades of the Marxist tradition, what he is saying is more of less what every genuine Socialist thinker/activist has said in years prior, albeit with less composed oratory. But do you see any other voice of the UK left as prominent and engaging as Brand? No.. so essentially that says two things.. the leftist movement in the UK is fucking dire, and in need of change.. and secondly someone with a more palatable composure for left politics is required to take this position and make something happen.

I am done with this conversation though, because whilst I really care about promoting a more egalitarian world, I generally sound like a massive prick when I talk politics, and I don't want people to dislike me on board where I respect and consider many of you my friends.

I feel bad for even bringing it up.

[jcnporter]

This is pretty much exactly my point and what I was getting at in the first post when I said its the message not the messenger. However poorly presented Brands ideas are and whatever measure of credibility you consider him to have, theoretically his ideas are well established from decades of the Marxist tradition, what he is saying is more of less what every genuine Socialist thinker/activist has said in years prior, albeit with less composed oratory. But do you see any other voice of the UK left as prominent and engaging as Brand? No.. so essentially that says two things.. the leftist movement in the UK is fucking dire, and in need of change.. and secondly someone with a more palatable composure for left politics is required to take this position and make something happen.

I am done with this conversation though, because whilst I really care about promoting a more egalitarian world, I generally sound like a massive prick when I talk politics, and I don't want people to dislike me on board where I respect and consider many of you my friends.

I feel bad for even bringing it up.

Not at all, I enjoyed the discussion. I totally agree, the left in the UK is in desperate need of a high profile, credible and articulate voice. Where's our Noam Chomsky?

[jcnporter]

On another note, I now have to cook for 6 people with quite a large Halloween party hangover....

Potato skins to start, beef brisket and garlic mash with BBQ sauce for the main and chocolate orange profiteroles for afters.

[Mexicola]

Just to return to Brand for a second, this is worth a read.

It seems like he is a -you-like-him-or-not- kind of person. It's clear that the author doesn't like his ideas.
What's wrong with someone who attacks the system without handing real solutions? At least he is standing up. The more people he reaches with his visions the higher the chance of solutions are imo.
I can't really speak about the politics in the UK but here in Holland we more and more have no say in politics. Even Brussels(EU) force their laws into the Dutch politic system without us to agree. This powerlessness makes me angry and that's why I appreciate all rebels who stand up and fight against the current politic system.

I read the article a little differently - although I have the benefit of being familiar with the author's stance on capitalism, which probably helps. I read this is support for Brand and actually agreeing with your points above

[GH]

@fujee: don't feel bad, & you don't come across negatively as far as I'm concerned.

While we're on the subject of left and right, what do you guys in the UK think of "comedian" Andrew Lawrence posting a facebook rant on left wing comedians joking at the expense of UKIP, taking particular swipes at Dara Ó Briain, ethnic comedians, and women comedians.
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/new ... EmhTfVLW57

too much moronic, liberal back-slapping on panel shows like Mock the Week where ageing, balding, fat men, ethnic comedians and women-posing-as-comedians, sit congratulating themselves on how enlightened they are about the fact that UKIP are ridiculous and pathetic.

It wasn't long before Nigel Farage was supporting these views and congratulating him, before clashing with Frankie Boyle on twitter
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/new ... e-row.html

Personally, I think it's either a cheap effort to make a name for himself as the next Jim Davidson, or he's trying to get himself on reality show I'm A Celebrity, with other Z listers.

[Mexicola]

Andrew Lawrence? The comedian?? A man madde funnier by his looks and squeaky voice, than anything he's ever said?

Yeah, that'd be about right that would.

[GH]

Heh yeah.

He must be deluded. I've never found him funny, but for Lawrence to have a go at somebody as intelligent as Ó Briain over his looks, when you look like he does is really far from bright.

He continues to jab at Dara's appearance on twitter: https://twitter.com/andrewlawrence/stat ... 4515682305

'You're digging a hole Andrew, stop digging.'
Well I have to dig pretty deep to bury you in it, you huge cunt. x

[GH]

Also, this here is a really good opinion piece by Dana Alexander on the above shenanigans: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dana-al ... 66462.html

[GH]

Also, this here is a good opinion piece by Dana Alexander on the above shenanigans: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dana-al ... 66462.html

(not too sure about the maps accuracy though)