Sick Times: Coronavirus

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Dayvan Cowboy
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kakanara wrote:Im not sure where i land politically but having lost a few people i knew kind of makes me wish the state had done a bit more than just suggest we stay at home or whatever. I am aware that it could lead to unreasonable control and all that stuff, but imagining that those guys could've been here still makes me feel bad about taking the libertarian approach. I'm really unsure as to what we should do.

Also arvy sorry about being an ass to you earlier


That's ok, no harm whatsoever, you are a good guy :wink:
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Sherbet Head
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kakanara wrote:Im not sure where i land politically but having lost a few people i knew kind of makes me wish the state had done a bit more than just suggest we stay at home or whatever. I am aware that it could lead to unreasonable control and all that stuff, but imagining that those guys could've been here still makes me feel bad about taking the libertarian approach. I'm really unsure as to what we should do.

Also arvy sorry about being an ass to you earlier

I definitely understand this concern. From my perspective taking the libertarian perspective doesn't mean we do nothing about the spread of COVID, it means we organize as communities to educate each other and deal with it ourselves rather than relying on the government to enforce laws to fix the problem. Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for the horrific outbreaks here; they both defunded and privatized health systems to line their own pockets.

I view government enforcement as a poison pill. Here in my country (the US), the state has shown over and over again that they don't care about health or safety, only making their rich campaign donors richer and maintaining their power; as a result, every new regulation ends up being used against the poor and underprivileged while wealthy people get away with whatever.

IMO removing government interference doesn't mean doing nothing, it means giving the people space to do a better job themselves.

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Happy Cycler
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First jab done at the weekend - I'm brimful of AZ. Had a couple of days of feeling tired and achy, but nowhere near the side-effects I was preparing myself for.

Don't be a conspiracist - go and get your jab when you get the chance.

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Eagle Minded
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SamuraiDrifter wrote:But -- and here's the big BUT -- I think that NOT wearing a mask or getting vaccinated is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I don't think it's something we should be forced into by the government, but I absolutely will tell my friends, family, and acquaintances how important vaccines and masks are, and I will definitely lose respect for anyone who can't sacrifice a little bit of comfort to help keep their community safe. I will keep anyone who disregards pandemic safety away from me and my family. I will tell them they're being ignorant, foolish, and putting people's lives at risk. That's me exercising MY freedom of association and speech.


I have to disagree with this. Masks are okay, while I doubt their effect on reducing effects, it is only a very minor inconvenience for me so I am not going to argue and just obey. Maybe they work, maybe they don't. But it doesn't hurt to use them because there are no real direct or indirect personal disadvantages.

Now for vaccines, I totally disagree. I find it astonishing how so many people just trust government and pharmaceutical companies to create a synthetic substance, which is engineered in a record timeframe with no long-term side effects known, and just let them shoot it into their own (healthy) body. I mean, if you have an underlying illness or are older then the risk trade-off might certainly be worth it. But no fucking way I'm going to allow that to happen. How on earth is it a good idea to vaccinate billions of healthy people worldwide? Why would I need a vaccin if I'm healthy? If you care about your body and learn to trust it, why need a vaccin? It's not like you are doing it for other people, I mean, older people and people with an illness do have an early choice to get a vaccin so you don't have to get yourself vaccinated for them, they are already protected if they are willing. And I'm not going to let someone shoot a vaccine in my body for a possibly intense flu. You have to define borders.

They way I see it this is another way to control people. By making people dependent on something external. Globalization at its finest. Not to mention this whole yearly vaccination campaign is filling a lot of deep pockets obviously. You don't have to believe in conspiracies to understand that. While it is ridiculous to downplay or even downright deny COVID-19, I think the other extreme is all the fear-mongering that is happening and it's a great way to create more control and freedom-limiting mechanics.
"I do actually believe that there are powers in music that are almost supernatural. I think you actually manipulate people with music, and that is definitely what we are trying to do."

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Happy Cycler
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Gazebo4 wrote:Now for vaccines, I totally disagree. I find it astonishing how so many people just trust government and pharmaceutical companies to create a synthetic substance, which is engineered in a record timeframe with no long-term side effects known, and just let them shoot it into their own (healthy) body. I mean, if you have an underlying illness or are older then the risk trade-off might certainly be worth it. But no fucking way I'm going to allow that to happen. How on earth is it a good idea to vaccinate billions of healthy people worldwide? Why would I need a vaccin if I'm healthy? If you care about your body and learn to trust it, why need a vaccin? It's not like you are doing it for other people, I mean, older people and people with an illness do have an early choice to get a vaccin so you don't have to get yourself vaccinated for them, they are already protected if they are willing. And I'm not going to let someone shoot a vaccine in my body for a possibly intense flu. You have to define borders.



But you *should* do things that benefit others and not just you! If young and healthy people get vaccinated, then there is less chance of them catching the virus and passing on to others who are older, vulnerable or unable to take the vaccine themselves due to other health conditions. Collective action and collective social responsibility is GOOD.

As for potential long term side effects of the vaccine. Do you know a long term side effect of COVID? Death is pretty long term.

I caught it last year and I was reasonably healthy, with a famously strong among my family immune system - it was an ongoing joke that others would catch an illness and be floored for days, but I'd have a sore throat for a couple of hours, knock back a couple of large whiskies, have a big sleep and be fine again. That was me, but Covid knocked me for six - my illness at the time wasn't that bad compared to some, but it is honestly only the last couple of months I've felt consistently well - I've had severe fatigue for about a year to the point where a short walk would tire me out. I'm largely OK now, but I'm at the point where I honestly can't see myself getting to 100% pre-Covid health any time soon; possibly ever.

You know what? Some people probably will get wealthier off the back of vaccine production and sales (though it should be noted that the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost price); thats the system we live in - I'm no fan of uncontrolled free-market capitalism, but you know what? If vaccinating huge populations mean that senior staff at Pfizer etc can buy a bigger car next year, I think I'm OK with that.

There is no vast, over-arching conspiracy about the vaccine being used to "control" us beyond what is obvious - governments want vaccinated populations to keep the wheels turning economically - that's not sinister; I want that too. I want a life back and I want a healthy population.

TLDR - stop with the conspiracy theories and roll your sleeve up.

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A_Northern_Soul wrote:But you *should* do things that benefit others and not just you!


I'm gonna stop you right there. Who are you to tell me what I should be doing? And more importantly, in this case specifically what I should be doing with my own body. Why do you project your own sheep mentality onto other people? Deciding for them what they should or should not be doing because what you believe is right in your perspective, or better said, someone else's perspective that you borrowed for convenience?

If young and healthy people get vaccinated, then there is less chance of them catching the virus and passing on to others who are older, vulnerable or unable to take the vaccine themselves due to other health conditions. Collective action and collective social responsibility is GOOD.


I agree that collective action and social responsibility is good, certainly. I just don't think that to vaccinate every healthy living human being on the planet is part of that responsibility. I think people should have the personal freedom to choose whether to take a vaccin or not. I don't think it should be forced, directly AND indirectly, and also don't think it should be frowned upon when people decline.

I don't think this virus is a mistake and that it actually exists to shake things up a bit in the world. Sometimes you need a bit of chaos to get to a more grounded society. Nature tends to do that, you know. Nature also tends to be build around the principle of the survival of the fittest, where the strongest that are necessary for evolution survive. I obviously don't make that shit up. I'm not saying we should have no empathy or that we should do nothing at all to counter the consequences of this pandemic. What I'm saying is that in my perspective we should not go completely out of our way to save a relative small amount of people, and certainly not because there are simply no long term studies on these vaccins. It's still a risk you are taking as a healthy human being.

As for potential long term side effects of the vaccine. Do you know a long term side effect of COVID? Death is pretty long term.


Yeah, congratulations for creating this pretty hyperbole. So in other words, in your anxiety bubble everyone who gets COVID-19 will die and therefore the only viable alternative is a forced worldwide vaccine? Is that really the point you are making here or am I missing something? I don't think I have to tell you that the amount of people that die from this virus worldwide is really small relatively. Yet to counter this fact it somehow seems a good idea to vaccinate EVERY healthy person in the world. How does that even make sense?

I caught it last year and I was reasonably healthy, with a famously strong among my family immune system - it was an ongoing joke that others would catch an illness and be floored for days, but I'd have a sore throat for a couple of hours, knock back a couple of large whiskies, have a big sleep and be fine again. That was me, but Covid knocked me for six - my illness at the time wasn't that bad compared to some, but it is honestly only the last couple of months I've felt consistently well - I've had severe fatigue for about a year to the point where a short walk would tire me out. I'm largely OK now, but I'm at the point where I honestly can't see myself getting to 100% pre-Covid health any time soon; possibly ever.


Yeah, this is just your personal experience with the virus. And for every one of these experiences there is a dozen experiences of just a flu, a mild flu, or some people who get it and barely get any symptoms at all. Just because you have had a rough time or some people die, that doesn't mean that everyone should go and put a vaccine in their bodies to prevent a super tiny chance of death.

And even so, death is all around us, everywhere. People die all the time. You have no control at all, you could die today. Death is part of life. It's the law of nature. Why do humans have this sick resistance to death, as if we can eventually prevent this inevitable event. And by trying to control all aspects of life we end up living in fear, which is the equivalent of being dead while alive. Great.

There is no vast, over-arching conspiracy about the vaccine being used to "control" us beyond what is obvious - governments want vaccinated populations to keep the wheels turning economically - that's not sinister; I want that too. I want a life back and I want a healthy population.


I don't know if you have been paying attention to current world events, but there is a big movement of even greater globalization happening, and it has everything to do with control, power and wealth. When power is centralized further and further there will come a time where nothing, not even a nation itself will be able to respond, let alone the individual.

These vaccins are just one example. How to have control over people? By making them disposable and dependent. Same thing with basic income. Take away jobs, take away salary and replace it with state funded income. Great, now we become even more reliant on something external. And if we do not obey we risk to not receive what we really need.

I'm not anti vaccins. I think that for some they are very useful obviously. But I am totally baffled by the fact that so many people somehow, in a very twisted way, demonize people who actually have a very different approach to this whole thing. Government decides what kind of drugs are legal and which are illegal. Government decides what you should put in your body and what you shouldn't. Fuck that.

It's about time people wake up and take responsibility. Not some over-rationalized do-gooder faux responsibility because we feel we have lost something and we cannot fathom change, but true responsibility that is inherent in all of us. To take action from the place of freedom and clarity. Power resides where men believe it resides. True power is within, don't give it away obediently.



TLDR - stop with the conspiracy theories and roll your sleeve up.


TLDR - stop with the fear-mongering and don't blindly obey because you do actually possess true freedom and self-authority.
"I do actually believe that there are powers in music that are almost supernatural. I think you actually manipulate people with music, and that is definitely what we are trying to do."

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Sherbet Head
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I'm very anti-capitalist and anti-government, as far as I'm concerned the Big Pharma execs heads should roll for how they've profited off the suffering of the sick, but guess what, I still think you should get a fucking vaccine.

Capitalism turns everything into a commodity controlled by the wealthy. Food. Shelter. Medicine. That doesn't mean we should reject those things, it means we should reclaim them.

Vaccination is probably the single most radically beneficial public health advancement in the past 150 years. It has absolutely eradicated diseases that used to decimate populations. In fact, their effectiveness is why companies are able to price gouge them so much: people are desperate.

I don't think anyone should be forced to get a vaccine by the government. But the fact is, if you aren't vaccinated, you pose a risk of spreading a dangerous disease to people around you. And each person that contracts it will likely spread it to 2-3 more, and the same is true for each of them. It will reach people who are vulnerable, who are (legitimately) medically unable to be vaccinated. Some of those people will die.

So it's not just about whether you are willing to take the risk of getting sick. You're taking the risk for those around you, too. You're saying "my desire to not get this vaccine outweighs the other lives I will put at risk by becoming a vector for the spread of the disease." That is selfish and irresponsible, and frankly I absolutely will look down on anybody who makes that decision. That's me exercising my freedom of speech and thought.

It's true that there aren't long-term studies of the COVID vaccine. That's obviously not ideal, but the alternative is letting a pandemic continue to run rampant for years longer when millions have already died. In the cost/benefit analysis it's clear what the better option is. Healthcare is full of such decisions and the vast majority of experts- doctors not just with profit-driven organizations, but academic researchers, are strongly in favor of deploying the vaccine.

Also, you seem to think it's somehow unusual for healthy people to get vaccinated, but... that's the point of getting a vaccine. It keeps you healthy.

In conclusion, fuck the government and the corporate overlords that are profiting off life-saving medications and vaccines. Vaccines, like all healthcare, should be freely distributed to every person in the world as needed. And everyone who is medically able to get a vaccine should do so for the sake of the vulnerable people they will otherwise put at risk.

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Dayvan Cowboy
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Different culture, this is why UK is the fastest vaccinated country in the world and Russia is still rock bottom. Western Europe was plagued by the Spanish flu, while were barely any historical writtings of it in Russia at the time. Hope you are getting dealt with your invented problem.
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Happy Cycler
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SamuraiDrifter wrote:I'm very anti-capitalist and anti-government, as far as I'm concerned the Big Pharma execs heads should roll for how they've profited off the suffering of the sick, but guess what, I still think you should get a fucking vaccine.

Capitalism turns everything into a commodity controlled by the wealthy. Food. Shelter. Medicine. That doesn't mean we should reject those things, it means we should reclaim them.

Vaccination is probably the single most radically beneficial public health advancement in the past 150 years. It has absolutely eradicated diseases that used to decimate populations. In fact, their effectiveness is why companies are able to price gouge them so much: people are desperate.

I don't think anyone should be forced to get a vaccine by the government. But the fact is, if you aren't vaccinated, you pose a risk of spreading a dangerous disease to people around you. And each person that contracts it will likely spread it to 2-3 more, and the same is true for each of them. It will reach people who are vulnerable, who are (legitimately) medically unable to be vaccinated. Some of those people will die.

So it's not just about whether you are willing to take the risk of getting sick. You're taking the risk for those around you, too. You're saying "my desire to not get this vaccine outweighs the other lives I will put at risk by becoming a vector for the spread of the disease." That is selfish and irresponsible, and frankly I absolutely will look down on anybody who makes that decision. That's me exercising my freedom of speech and thought.

It's true that there aren't long-term studies of the COVID vaccine. That's obviously not ideal, but the alternative is letting a pandemic continue to run rampant for years longer when millions have already died. In the cost/benefit analysis it's clear what the better option is. Healthcare is full of such decisions and the vast majority of experts- doctors not just with profit-driven organizations, but academic researchers, are strongly in favor of deploying the vaccine.

Also, you seem to think it's somehow unusual for healthy people to get vaccinated, but... that's the point of getting a vaccine. It keeps you healthy.

In conclusion, fuck the government and the corporate overlords that are profiting off life-saving medications and vaccines. Vaccines, like all healthcare, should be freely distributed to every person in the world as needed. And everyone who is medically able to get a vaccine should do so for the sake of the vulnerable people they will otherwise put at risk.


Exactly this.

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Dayvan Cowboy
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Gazebo4 wrote:Now for vaccines, I totally disagree. I find it astonishing how so many people just trust government and pharmaceutical companies to create a synthetic substance, which is engineered in a record timeframe with no long-term side effects known, and just let them shoot it into their own (healthy) body. I mean, if you have an underlying illness or are older then the risk trade-off might certainly be worth it. But no fucking way I'm going to allow that to happen. How on earth is it a good idea to vaccinate billions of healthy people worldwide? Why would I need a vaccin if I'm healthy? If you care about your body and learn to trust it, why need a vaccin? It's not like you are doing it for other people, I mean, older people and people with an illness do have an early choice to get a vaccin so you don't have to get yourself vaccinated for them, they are already protected if they are willing. And I'm not going to let someone shoot a vaccine in my body for a possibly intense flu. You have to define borders.


We vaccinate healthy people because that's how it works and why we don't have folks getting Smallpox or Polio (to name just two) anymore.
Why object to this particular vaccine? If you were travelling abroad would you get any required vaccines?

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Dayvan Cowboy
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SamuraiDrifter wrote:I'm very anti-capitalist and anti-government, as far as I'm concerned the Big Pharma execs heads should roll for how they've profited off the suffering of the sick, but guess what, I still think you should get a fucking vaccine.

Capitalism turns everything into a commodity controlled by the wealthy. Food. Shelter. Medicine. That doesn't mean we should reject those things, it means we should reclaim them.

Vaccination is probably the single most radically beneficial public health advancement in the past 150 years. It has absolutely eradicated diseases that used to decimate populations. In fact, their effectiveness is why companies are able to price gouge them so much: people are desperate.

I don't think anyone should be forced to get a vaccine by the government. But the fact is, if you aren't vaccinated, you pose a risk of spreading a dangerous disease to people around you. And each person that contracts it will likely spread it to 2-3 more, and the same is true for each of them. It will reach people who are vulnerable, who are (legitimately) medically unable to be vaccinated. Some of those people will die.

So it's not just about whether you are willing to take the risk of getting sick. You're taking the risk for those around you, too. You're saying "my desire to not get this vaccine outweighs the other lives I will put at risk by becoming a vector for the spread of the disease." That is selfish and irresponsible, and frankly I absolutely will look down on anybody who makes that decision. That's me exercising my freedom of speech and thought.

It's true that there aren't long-term studies of the COVID vaccine. That's obviously not ideal, but the alternative is letting a pandemic continue to run rampant for years longer when millions have already died. In the cost/benefit analysis it's clear what the better option is. Healthcare is full of such decisions and the vast majority of experts- doctors not just with profit-driven organizations, but academic researchers, are strongly in favor of deploying the vaccine.

Also, you seem to think it's somehow unusual for healthy people to get vaccinated, but... that's the point of getting a vaccine. It keeps you healthy.

In conclusion, fuck the government and the corporate overlords that are profiting off life-saving medications and vaccines. Vaccines, like all healthcare, should be freely distributed to every person in the world as needed. And everyone who is medically able to get a vaccine should do so for the sake of the vulnerable people they will otherwise put at risk.


Absolutely. If nothing else, vaccination is an action of mass solidarity amongst human beings. It would be a sad illustration of society if it needed to be compulsory.
Humans are naturally cooperative, altruistic and empathetic. We should be constantly asking ourselves why our economic, political and media structures are inherently designed to divide us.

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jcnporter wrote:Humans are naturally cooperative, altruistic and empathetic. We should be constantly asking ourselves why our economic, political and media structures are inherently designed to divide us.

are you from the netherlands of something? haha

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Don't trust your government. It has quite clearly been hijacked by way of compromising some VERY wealthy and powerful people. What do you think Jeffrey / Ghislane were doing? The British government was blackmailed by sinister intelligence gatherers and brought into the Iraq / Afghanistan wars. The whole labour government was compromised and it has continued to this day under the current government. They've tried to keep a lid on it.

If BoC have been trying to say anything through their music it's that there is a move (quite rightly) to bring about a new order in the world. An age of Aquarius where the mind is truly liberated and our politicians cannot be compromised through their personal lifestyles, be them sexual or narcotic or addictions to fortnite. A universal understanding so we can largely govern ourselves.

It sometimes pays to be paranoid. Like the Rabbit in watership down, some are tuned to coming changes. They see through the lies, they stand tall. If you've been exposed to the right sort of literature/art, films and drugs and you're the sort that is predisposed to mental illness and a healthy does of paranoia then you may get visions. Whether these visions are delusional or real, about to happen, never happen or happen in a thousand years is besides the point. I think Jung said that people don't live, they are lived. He meant by means of their subconscious making the persons decisions. I just follow my gut and I sense something absolutely terrifying through all this.

Get a shot of protection and be ill/Your choice, your choice, your choice. - Was there more to that?

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Eagle Minded
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Okay I'll say this clearly first: I am not anti-vaccination. I think it's beautiful that we can use science to engineer vaccines and it is clearly evident how well that has worked so far throughout history.

All I'm saying is that with this particular vaccin there are absolutely no long-term studies and therefore it is completely unknown what the long-term side effects are going to be, if there are going to be any. The chance is probably small I understand that, but still there is certainly a risk involved. Especially because I personally don't see the government and pharmaceutical companies as friends who want the best for everyone. And I have my own reasons for that.

Complications and deaths have happened before (albeit on a very small scale, but still) with other vaccines in recent history. So all I'm saying is that I think that whether or not you choose to take the vaccin, it would be very wise to think about it well first and talk to others about it, exchange opinions. Don't just jump on the bandwagon and obediently take it "because you should be taking it" or "because you do it for other people". The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Then secondly I ask myself, who am I personally getting this vaccin for? Older people and people with certain illnesses already have a choice to vaccinate themselves right? So we can then be assured that everyone that willingly takes a vaccin will be protected, right? The only very small group left are those who cannot get a vaccin due to underlying health conditions. So my question then is, should I possibly jeopardize my own health in order to possibly save a very, very, very(!) small minority that is already unhealthy? My choice is, no. I am not going to comply. That, combined with the fact that most people will get through the virus just fine in the end, are the basis for my current decision. And you know what, I might take the vaccin a year or two down the road, I'm open to that possibility. I want to close as few doors as possible. That is true freedom for me.

Then lastly, I think that enforcement in this particular situation is always a bad thing, because it is in all cases an attack on personal freedom. Even if there are a hundred legitimate rational reasons to enforce, it should never be the ultimate outcome. It is something that goes against the natural flow of life.

Personally, through lots of self-investigation, I can more and more clearly see the root of all suffering, in myself and therefore in my fellow human beings. Does that mean that I have to preach and enforce my findings onto others because they are hurting themselves and therefore others because of their own ignorance? No it does not. You have to give people space to make their own decisions, and respect the path they are taking. Only then can they truly learn and gain insight. This is why (doctrine) religions obviously don't free people from their suffering and delusions. Because it is enforced.

Also, what is the main motive of the one that is enforcing? That somehow one thinks he or she is right and the one with the opposing stance is dead wrong. And therefore the enforcer has to push their perspective onto others, even though in all cases it is purely a subjective perspective that is only backed up with the rational understanding of what is currently known. But isn't that a very ignorant stance? Couldn't there perhaps be a much larger capacity of understanding/intelligence than just the tiny rational part that is currently used as a basis for this rigid perspective? Everything always changes, the rational understanding we know today does not make any sense anymore tomorrow. And can people see it from a different angel too or are they so wound up in their "truth" that they are just staring into a never-ending tunnel of ignorance? When you have to enforce, that is clearly an indication that you have no personal freedom yourself to begin with.

Maybe it's wrong to not get a vaccin, or maybe it's the right thing to do. Or maybe neither. Bottom line is that my opinion is that personal freedom should never be diminished in situations like these.

PS: I have taken Hepatitis A+B vaccins before, when traveling to Asia for a few months ;)
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Dayvan Cowboy
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Gazebo4 wrote:Okay I'll say this clearly first: I am not anti-vaccination. I think it's beautiful that we can use science to engineer vaccines and it is clearly evident how well that has worked so far throughout history.

All I'm saying is that with this particular vaccin there are absolutely no long-term studies and therefore it is completely unknown what the long-term side effects are going to be, if there are going to be any. The chance is probably small I understand that, but still there is certainly a risk involved. Especially because I personally don't see the government and pharmaceutical companies as friends who want the best for everyone. And I have my own reasons for that.

Complications and deaths have happened before (albeit on a very small scale, but still) with other vaccines in recent history. So all I'm saying is that I think that whether or not you choose to take the vaccin, it would be very wise to think about it well first and talk to others about it, exchange opinions. Don't just jump on the bandwagon and obediently take it "because you should be taking it" or "because you do it for other people". The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Then secondly I ask myself, who am I personally getting this vaccin for? Older people and people with certain illnesses already have a choice to vaccinate themselves right? So we can then be assured that everyone that willingly takes a vaccin will be protected, right? The only very small group left are those who cannot get a vaccin due to underlying health conditions. So my question then is, should I possibly jeopardize my own health in order to possibly save a very, very, very(!) small minority that is already unhealthy? My choice is, no. I am not going to comply. That, combined with the fact that most people will get through the virus just fine in the end, are the basis for my current decision. And you know what, I might take the vaccin a year or two down the road, I'm open to that possibility. I want to close as few doors as possible. That is true freedom for me.

Then lastly, I think that enforcement in this particular situation is always a bad thing, because it is in all cases an attack on personal freedom. Even if there are a hundred legitimate rational reasons to enforce, it should never be the ultimate outcome. It is something that goes against the natural flow of life.

Personally, through lots of self-investigation, I can more and more clearly see the root of all suffering, in myself and therefore in my fellow human beings. Does that mean that I have to preach and enforce my findings onto others because they are hurting themselves and therefore others because of their own ignorance? No it does not. You have to give people space to make their own decisions, and respect the path they are taking. Only then can they truly learn and gain insight. This is why (doctrine) religions obviously don't free people from their suffering and delusions. Because it is enforced.

Also, what is the main motive of the one that is enforcing? That somehow one thinks he or she is right and the one with the opposing stance is dead wrong. And therefore the enforcer has to push their perspective onto others, even though in all cases it is purely a subjective perspective that is only backed up with the rational understanding of what is currently known. But isn't that a very ignorant stance? Couldn't there perhaps be a much larger capacity of understanding/intelligence than just the tiny rational part that is currently used as a basis for this rigid perspective? Everything always changes, the rational understanding we know today does not make any sense anymore tomorrow. And can people see it from a different angel too or are they so wound up in their "truth" that they are just staring into a never-ending tunnel of ignorance? When you have to enforce, that is clearly an indication that you have no personal freedom yourself to begin with.

Maybe it's wrong to not get a vaccin, or maybe it's the right thing to do. Or maybe neither. Bottom line is that my opinion is that personal freedom should never be diminished in situations like these.

PS: I have taken Hepatitis A+B vaccins before, when traveling to Asia for a few months ;)


You are trying to rtionalize irrational behavior. As, I understood, there are no such way. The more you get in to the conversataion, the more they keep pushing.

It baffles me,

1) How they think, their truth is apllicable to everyone and everybody.
2) Their truth is 100 correct.

And it's not that they are arguing on some philosophy topic, but they literraly barguing with my own health. It really makes me want, that someone would show them their place :)

Overall well said bro, I especially agree on that you should trust your body. But, tell me, why go to some 3rd world country, where you can get Hipatitus. Stay at your home. Btw, was visiting Netherlands about 10 years ago. Beaitufull country, fresh air and green forests. Reminds me of my own green Lietuva.
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And The Children Shall Lead

The federation starship Enterprise arrives at the planet Triacus. Captain Kirk, Dr. McCoy, and First Officer Spock beam down in time to witness the death of Professor Starnes, the leader of a scientific expedition team. The other members of the expedition, apart from their five seemingly unconcerned children, seem to have died at their own hands.

The crew bring the children back to the Enterprise, where McCoy evaluates them and determines that they are suffering from lacunar amnesia, unaware of what happened to their parents and unable to grieve. However, when left unattended in one of the ship's rooms, the children chant an evocation and summon a glowing humanoid named Gorgan. He advises them to take control of the crew in order to get to Marcus XII, his preferred destination. The eldest child, Tommy, uses mental powers Gorgan has bestowed on the children to trick the crew into steering the ship while presenting illusions that make them think they are still in orbit above Triacus.

Upon reviewing a troubling expedition film recorded by Starnes, Spock, McCoy, and Kirk return to the bridge to find the children and Gorgan fully in control of the crew. Unable to break their hold on the crew, Spock observes that the children are merely possessed by Gorgan, who must be the evil embodiment of an ancient group of space-warring marauders released by Starnes's archaeological survey.

Believing they can break the hold Gorgan has on the children, Spock plays back footage showing the children happy with their parents, who are then shown to be dead. As the children realize what has happened, they break down emotionally and Gorgan's appearance begins to deteriorate. With the children's powers gone, the crew regains control and Kirk orders a course for Starbase 4 while they take care to comfort the children.

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Dayvan Cowboy
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Folks, if you understand how vaccines and immunity work, you'll understand that by not taking it you're effectively scamming the goodwill of the very people you are criticising, who have taken it to protect you (and themselves), while putting others at risk, all for your own perceived benefit. I say 'perceived' because of the many cases of immediate serious illness and delayed permanent damage to the bodies of those who catch Covid.
In short, others take the risk so you can benefit, while you are putting others at risk. Vaccines and masks are mainly to protect other people. It's incredible, but perhaps not surprising, how little this is mentioned in our world of individualism.
If you've ever been part of a labour union, you'll know the mechanism and the sentiment.
I'm not sure I can put it any clearer than that.

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Dayvan Cowboy
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It's really cool that people are thinking critically and coming up with questions like "this vaccine was developed and rolled out quickly. How did they do it so fast? Is it safe?"

It's less cool that people are stopping there in suspicion without making an attempt to research it - a simple google of that exact question turns up some really good answers. It's quite a bit less than cool that people are then pointing at people that have done that and saying "you're just going along with what the government says, do your research" having not done it themselves. That's just ignorance masquerading as skepticism

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Cool

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