Mon May 17, 2021 8:06 am
Aesthetics wrote:Let's, especially in these times, respect each other their point of view and not call someone names because of that.
It seems like there isn't a middle course these days, polarization increases and we are less open toward one and another when covid is brought to the table. To me it is concerning not having an open minded discussion about something which inflicts us all. Let's not stop the debate here on twoism so please respect the forum rules.
Mon May 17, 2021 8:19 am
niknak wrote:Aesthetics wrote:Let's, especially in these times, respect each other their point of view and not call someone names because of that.
It seems like there isn't a middle course these days, polarization increases and we are less open toward one and another when covid is brought to the table. To me it is concerning not having an open minded discussion about something which inflicts us all. Let's not stop the debate here on twoism so please respect the forum rules.
Fair enough. However, sorry, there are some points of view which are not worthy of respect, and it is not possible to comment on moronic dangerous views without implying there is a dangerous moron behind them. Masks or if the virus exists is not a debate. People literally die because of "points of view" like this.
Mon May 17, 2021 9:26 am
niknak wrote:Aesthetics wrote:Let's, especially in these times, respect each other their point of view and not call someone names because of that.
It seems like there isn't a middle course these days, polarization increases and we are less open toward one and another when covid is brought to the table. To me it is concerning not having an open minded discussion about something which inflicts us all. Let's not stop the debate here on twoism so please respect the forum rules.
Fair enough. However, sorry, there are some points of view which are not worthy of respect, and it is not possible to comment on moronic dangerous views without implying there is a dangerous moron behind them. Masks or if the virus exists is not a debate. People literally die because of "points of view" like this.
Mon May 17, 2021 1:12 pm
Aesthetics wrote: Foul language and pigeonholing certainly do not help to get closer in point of view.
I really wonder how you would argue in real life... do you, sitting in front of each other, also use expletives to fortify your point?
Mon May 17, 2021 2:13 pm
Mon May 17, 2021 4:29 pm
niknak wrote:Aesthetics wrote: Foul language and pigeonholing certainly do not help to get closer in point of view.
I really wonder how you would argue in real life... do you, sitting in front of each other, also use expletives to fortify your point?
Well, actually yes. Frequently. I call my closest friends all sorts of foul cursewords in the course of heated discussions, but that's quite cultural.
But i take your point. Online is not the same, so tone and context can be lost. I should have framed my opinions of arvy and his views better.
However, I am not going to have a conversation about the COVID pandemic when the starting point of a participant is that the virus does not exist, or that public mask wearing is "barbaric" or some sort of assault on freedom and something to be fought against, like some countries fought the Nazis (and this is not the first time he has spouted these fringe conspiracy views, by the way). He has already shown he can't keep any discussion separate from Nationalistic nonsense, as if that had anything to do with anything. If arvy really wants to, and more importantly is open to, truly learning about the COVID virus and issues of public health there are many better and more authoritative sources on the internet he could consult than discussing it here.
These ideas and the open sharing of them are abhorrent, dangerous and directly lead to people's deaths. I only need to point to the death toll in countries where these selfish and dangerous anti-science, anti-intellectual, and "personal freedom" ideas have taken root, compared to those where they have not. Look at the close to 600,000 dead in the US compared to the toll in places like Taiwan or South Korea (effectively zero over the same time period). How many of those deaths would have been avoided had the same public health policies been enacted there, or had idiotic fringe groups not fought against the even laughably minor ones that were enacted, such as - shock horror - wearing a small mask sometimes? There is no middle course here. No common ground. The notion that any extreme view is worthy of debate as long as it is done in a civil manner is pure bothsidesism. Polarisation is the natural position when one side is holding opinions that might literally kill the other side.
Where exactly is the line here? Should this forum be open to discussing any issue as long as it is done in balanced, polite fashion? Racist ideals? Misogynistic opinions? Anti-science views? Should we try to find common ground with all these people?
In my experience people with fringe views are so entrenched no amount of discussion will ever convince them otherwise. Such views should not be given a safe haven, should not be made acceptable through being unchallenged, and should not pass without comment. These people should be shunned, made to feel unwelcome, told in no uncertain terms how stupid their ideas are. Such public shaming is the most effective strategy because at least it reduces the chances they will infect others with their dangerous, ill-informed views.
Mon May 17, 2021 5:27 pm
arvy wrote:Should I stand up, on saying, that wearing masks is attack on a personal freedom, hidden with the wall of burocratic language, by the system which can digress from human nature, I would say even unhuman, unfortunetaly yes.
arvy wrote:I think the real danger would be, if the scientific proves, become more powerfull, than a common sense.
Tue May 18, 2021 6:17 am
Wed May 19, 2021 4:47 pm
Thu May 20, 2021 10:41 pm
Jonse wrote:Inconvenience should push us together, yet it drives us apart.
Fri May 21, 2021 7:54 am
Gazebo4 wrote:Jonse wrote:Inconvenience should push us together, yet it drives us apart.
Well if you only follow the news yes, all you see is suffering. I actually think there are also a lot of people who are taking advantage of this whole event in a positive way.
Also, for a faster and bigger change to occur a period of chaos is needed first most of the time, to bridge the old and the new. I think it's a great and interesting time to be alive and am pretty optimistic for the future!
Fri May 21, 2021 2:59 pm
arvy wrote:I think the real danger would be, if the scientific proves, become more powerfull, than a common sense.
Fri May 21, 2021 7:40 pm
Fri May 21, 2021 10:24 pm
SamuraiDrifter wrote:arvy wrote:I think the real danger would be, if the scientific proves, become more powerfull, than a common sense.
Science is just the systematic application of common sense.
Wearing masks to prevent the spread of a respiratory disease is common sense. The virus primarily spreads through droplets that come from your nose and mouth, so it's sensible to cover your nose and mouth.
I agree that the government forcing people to wear masks or get vaccinated is very much an attack on personal freedom. I don't think it's right for the government to threaten us to earn compliance, and any time new criminal regulations are introduced, inevitably poor and marginalized people suffer the most. So I'm against mask mandates and forced vaccination.
But -- and here's the big BUT -- I think that NOT wearing a mask or getting vaccinated is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I don't think it's something we should be forced into by the government, but I absolutely will tell my friends, family, and acquaintances how important vaccines and masks are, and I will definitely lose respect for anyone who can't sacrifice a little bit of comfort to help keep their community safe. I will keep anyone who disregards pandemic safety away from me and my family. I will tell them they're being ignorant, foolish, and putting people's lives at risk. That's me exercising MY freedom of association and speech.
Fri May 21, 2021 10:51 pm
Sat May 22, 2021 10:46 am
jcnporter wrote:SamuraiDrifter wrote:arvy wrote:I think the real danger would be, if the scientific proves, become more powerfull, than a common sense.
Science is just the systematic application of common sense.
Wearing masks to prevent the spread of a respiratory disease is common sense. The virus primarily spreads through droplets that come from your nose and mouth, so it's sensible to cover your nose and mouth.
I agree that the government forcing people to wear masks or get vaccinated is very much an attack on personal freedom. I don't think it's right for the government to threaten us to earn compliance, and any time new criminal regulations are introduced, inevitably poor and marginalized people suffer the most. So I'm against mask mandates and forced vaccination.
But -- and here's the big BUT -- I think that NOT wearing a mask or getting vaccinated is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I don't think it's something we should be forced into by the government, but I absolutely will tell my friends, family, and acquaintances how important vaccines and masks are, and I will definitely lose respect for anyone who can't sacrifice a little bit of comfort to help keep their community safe. I will keep anyone who disregards pandemic safety away from me and my family. I will tell them they're being ignorant, foolish, and putting people's lives at risk. That's me exercising MY freedom of association and speech.
Agree with all of this and while I do agree that government shouldn't legislate to enforce mask wearing and vaccinations, it's interesting that these days no-one protests against the government enforcing, for example, the wearing of seatbelts, which isn't even about protecting other people.
Sun May 23, 2021 10:36 am
Sun May 23, 2021 6:32 pm
Mon May 24, 2021 12:47 am
Mon May 24, 2021 4:01 am