Mon May 24, 2021 5:56 am
kakanara wrote:Im not sure where i land politically but having lost a few people i knew kind of makes me wish the state had done a bit more than just suggest we stay at home or whatever. I am aware that it could lead to unreasonable control and all that stuff, but imagining that those guys could've been here still makes me feel bad about taking the libertarian approach. I'm really unsure as to what we should do.
Also arvy sorry about being an ass to you earlier
Mon May 24, 2021 12:36 pm
kakanara wrote:Im not sure where i land politically but having lost a few people i knew kind of makes me wish the state had done a bit more than just suggest we stay at home or whatever. I am aware that it could lead to unreasonable control and all that stuff, but imagining that those guys could've been here still makes me feel bad about taking the libertarian approach. I'm really unsure as to what we should do.
Also arvy sorry about being an ass to you earlier
Wed May 26, 2021 3:26 pm
Thu May 27, 2021 8:56 am
SamuraiDrifter wrote:But -- and here's the big BUT -- I think that NOT wearing a mask or getting vaccinated is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I don't think it's something we should be forced into by the government, but I absolutely will tell my friends, family, and acquaintances how important vaccines and masks are, and I will definitely lose respect for anyone who can't sacrifice a little bit of comfort to help keep their community safe. I will keep anyone who disregards pandemic safety away from me and my family. I will tell them they're being ignorant, foolish, and putting people's lives at risk. That's me exercising MY freedom of association and speech.
Thu May 27, 2021 1:04 pm
Gazebo4 wrote:Now for vaccines, I totally disagree. I find it astonishing how so many people just trust government and pharmaceutical companies to create a synthetic substance, which is engineered in a record timeframe with no long-term side effects known, and just let them shoot it into their own (healthy) body. I mean, if you have an underlying illness or are older then the risk trade-off might certainly be worth it. But no fucking way I'm going to allow that to happen. How on earth is it a good idea to vaccinate billions of healthy people worldwide? Why would I need a vaccin if I'm healthy? If you care about your body and learn to trust it, why need a vaccin? It's not like you are doing it for other people, I mean, older people and people with an illness do have an early choice to get a vaccin so you don't have to get yourself vaccinated for them, they are already protected if they are willing. And I'm not going to let someone shoot a vaccine in my body for a possibly intense flu. You have to define borders.
Thu May 27, 2021 11:57 pm
A_Northern_Soul wrote:But you *should* do things that benefit others and not just you!
If young and healthy people get vaccinated, then there is less chance of them catching the virus and passing on to others who are older, vulnerable or unable to take the vaccine themselves due to other health conditions. Collective action and collective social responsibility is GOOD.
As for potential long term side effects of the vaccine. Do you know a long term side effect of COVID? Death is pretty long term.
I caught it last year and I was reasonably healthy, with a famously strong among my family immune system - it was an ongoing joke that others would catch an illness and be floored for days, but I'd have a sore throat for a couple of hours, knock back a couple of large whiskies, have a big sleep and be fine again. That was me, but Covid knocked me for six - my illness at the time wasn't that bad compared to some, but it is honestly only the last couple of months I've felt consistently well - I've had severe fatigue for about a year to the point where a short walk would tire me out. I'm largely OK now, but I'm at the point where I honestly can't see myself getting to 100% pre-Covid health any time soon; possibly ever.
There is no vast, over-arching conspiracy about the vaccine being used to "control" us beyond what is obvious - governments want vaccinated populations to keep the wheels turning economically - that's not sinister; I want that too. I want a life back and I want a healthy population.
TLDR - stop with the conspiracy theories and roll your sleeve up.
Fri May 28, 2021 12:37 am
Fri May 28, 2021 5:51 am
Fri May 28, 2021 10:24 am
SamuraiDrifter wrote:I'm very anti-capitalist and anti-government, as far as I'm concerned the Big Pharma execs heads should roll for how they've profited off the suffering of the sick, but guess what, I still think you should get a fucking vaccine.
Capitalism turns everything into a commodity controlled by the wealthy. Food. Shelter. Medicine. That doesn't mean we should reject those things, it means we should reclaim them.
Vaccination is probably the single most radically beneficial public health advancement in the past 150 years. It has absolutely eradicated diseases that used to decimate populations. In fact, their effectiveness is why companies are able to price gouge them so much: people are desperate.
I don't think anyone should be forced to get a vaccine by the government. But the fact is, if you aren't vaccinated, you pose a risk of spreading a dangerous disease to people around you. And each person that contracts it will likely spread it to 2-3 more, and the same is true for each of them. It will reach people who are vulnerable, who are (legitimately) medically unable to be vaccinated. Some of those people will die.
So it's not just about whether you are willing to take the risk of getting sick. You're taking the risk for those around you, too. You're saying "my desire to not get this vaccine outweighs the other lives I will put at risk by becoming a vector for the spread of the disease." That is selfish and irresponsible, and frankly I absolutely will look down on anybody who makes that decision. That's me exercising my freedom of speech and thought.
It's true that there aren't long-term studies of the COVID vaccine. That's obviously not ideal, but the alternative is letting a pandemic continue to run rampant for years longer when millions have already died. In the cost/benefit analysis it's clear what the better option is. Healthcare is full of such decisions and the vast majority of experts- doctors not just with profit-driven organizations, but academic researchers, are strongly in favor of deploying the vaccine.
Also, you seem to think it's somehow unusual for healthy people to get vaccinated, but... that's the point of getting a vaccine. It keeps you healthy.
In conclusion, fuck the government and the corporate overlords that are profiting off life-saving medications and vaccines. Vaccines, like all healthcare, should be freely distributed to every person in the world as needed. And everyone who is medically able to get a vaccine should do so for the sake of the vulnerable people they will otherwise put at risk.
Fri May 28, 2021 11:07 am
Gazebo4 wrote:Now for vaccines, I totally disagree. I find it astonishing how so many people just trust government and pharmaceutical companies to create a synthetic substance, which is engineered in a record timeframe with no long-term side effects known, and just let them shoot it into their own (healthy) body. I mean, if you have an underlying illness or are older then the risk trade-off might certainly be worth it. But no fucking way I'm going to allow that to happen. How on earth is it a good idea to vaccinate billions of healthy people worldwide? Why would I need a vaccin if I'm healthy? If you care about your body and learn to trust it, why need a vaccin? It's not like you are doing it for other people, I mean, older people and people with an illness do have an early choice to get a vaccin so you don't have to get yourself vaccinated for them, they are already protected if they are willing. And I'm not going to let someone shoot a vaccine in my body for a possibly intense flu. You have to define borders.
Fri May 28, 2021 11:17 am
SamuraiDrifter wrote:I'm very anti-capitalist and anti-government, as far as I'm concerned the Big Pharma execs heads should roll for how they've profited off the suffering of the sick, but guess what, I still think you should get a fucking vaccine.
Capitalism turns everything into a commodity controlled by the wealthy. Food. Shelter. Medicine. That doesn't mean we should reject those things, it means we should reclaim them.
Vaccination is probably the single most radically beneficial public health advancement in the past 150 years. It has absolutely eradicated diseases that used to decimate populations. In fact, their effectiveness is why companies are able to price gouge them so much: people are desperate.
I don't think anyone should be forced to get a vaccine by the government. But the fact is, if you aren't vaccinated, you pose a risk of spreading a dangerous disease to people around you. And each person that contracts it will likely spread it to 2-3 more, and the same is true for each of them. It will reach people who are vulnerable, who are (legitimately) medically unable to be vaccinated. Some of those people will die.
So it's not just about whether you are willing to take the risk of getting sick. You're taking the risk for those around you, too. You're saying "my desire to not get this vaccine outweighs the other lives I will put at risk by becoming a vector for the spread of the disease." That is selfish and irresponsible, and frankly I absolutely will look down on anybody who makes that decision. That's me exercising my freedom of speech and thought.
It's true that there aren't long-term studies of the COVID vaccine. That's obviously not ideal, but the alternative is letting a pandemic continue to run rampant for years longer when millions have already died. In the cost/benefit analysis it's clear what the better option is. Healthcare is full of such decisions and the vast majority of experts- doctors not just with profit-driven organizations, but academic researchers, are strongly in favor of deploying the vaccine.
Also, you seem to think it's somehow unusual for healthy people to get vaccinated, but... that's the point of getting a vaccine. It keeps you healthy.
In conclusion, fuck the government and the corporate overlords that are profiting off life-saving medications and vaccines. Vaccines, like all healthcare, should be freely distributed to every person in the world as needed. And everyone who is medically able to get a vaccine should do so for the sake of the vulnerable people they will otherwise put at risk.
Fri May 28, 2021 1:23 pm
jcnporter wrote:Humans are naturally cooperative, altruistic and empathetic. We should be constantly asking ourselves why our economic, political and media structures are inherently designed to divide us.
Sat May 29, 2021 7:59 am
Sat May 29, 2021 8:50 am
Sat May 29, 2021 9:53 am
Gazebo4 wrote:Okay I'll say this clearly first: I am not anti-vaccination. I think it's beautiful that we can use science to engineer vaccines and it is clearly evident how well that has worked so far throughout history.
All I'm saying is that with this particular vaccin there are absolutely no long-term studies and therefore it is completely unknown what the long-term side effects are going to be, if there are going to be any. The chance is probably small I understand that, but still there is certainly a risk involved. Especially because I personally don't see the government and pharmaceutical companies as friends who want the best for everyone. And I have my own reasons for that.
Complications and deaths have happened before (albeit on a very small scale, but still) with other vaccines in recent history. So all I'm saying is that I think that whether or not you choose to take the vaccin, it would be very wise to think about it well first and talk to others about it, exchange opinions. Don't just jump on the bandwagon and obediently take it "because you should be taking it" or "because you do it for other people". The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Then secondly I ask myself, who am I personally getting this vaccin for? Older people and people with certain illnesses already have a choice to vaccinate themselves right? So we can then be assured that everyone that willingly takes a vaccin will be protected, right? The only very small group left are those who cannot get a vaccin due to underlying health conditions. So my question then is, should I possibly jeopardize my own health in order to possibly save a very, very, very(!) small minority that is already unhealthy? My choice is, no. I am not going to comply. That, combined with the fact that most people will get through the virus just fine in the end, are the basis for my current decision. And you know what, I might take the vaccin a year or two down the road, I'm open to that possibility. I want to close as few doors as possible. That is true freedom for me.
Then lastly, I think that enforcement in this particular situation is always a bad thing, because it is in all cases an attack on personal freedom. Even if there are a hundred legitimate rational reasons to enforce, it should never be the ultimate outcome. It is something that goes against the natural flow of life.
Personally, through lots of self-investigation, I can more and more clearly see the root of all suffering, in myself and therefore in my fellow human beings. Does that mean that I have to preach and enforce my findings onto others because they are hurting themselves and therefore others because of their own ignorance? No it does not. You have to give people space to make their own decisions, and respect the path they are taking. Only then can they truly learn and gain insight. This is why (doctrine) religions obviously don't free people from their suffering and delusions. Because it is enforced.
Also, what is the main motive of the one that is enforcing? That somehow one thinks he or she is right and the one with the opposing stance is dead wrong. And therefore the enforcer has to push their perspective onto others, even though in all cases it is purely a subjective perspective that is only backed up with the rational understanding of what is currently known. But isn't that a very ignorant stance? Couldn't there perhaps be a much larger capacity of understanding/intelligence than just the tiny rational part that is currently used as a basis for this rigid perspective? Everything always changes, the rational understanding we know today does not make any sense anymore tomorrow. And can people see it from a different angel too or are they so wound up in their "truth" that they are just staring into a never-ending tunnel of ignorance? When you have to enforce, that is clearly an indication that you have no personal freedom yourself to begin with.
Maybe it's wrong to not get a vaccin, or maybe it's the right thing to do. Or maybe neither. Bottom line is that my opinion is that personal freedom should never be diminished in situations like these.
PS: I have taken Hepatitis A+B vaccins before, when traveling to Asia for a few months
Sat May 29, 2021 11:34 am
Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 pm
Sun May 30, 2021 10:23 am
Sun May 30, 2021 10:38 am