Semena Mertvykh: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Orbited insanitarium]

Disclaimer:
First of all, I ask you to keep the discussion in this topic well worded and most importantly civilized.

This is a current and world events thread, and I hope for it to be a place for non-aggressive conversation like for example on the 'Sick Times: Coronavirus' topic.

Disclaimer 2:
If Fredd-E or Aesthetics find that this is not appropriate, please contact me first hand.
I understand that twoism is a place of escapism and well thought out discussion and I wouldn't want this to change.

[Gazebo4]

Good disclaimer. This whole thing has two sides of the story that's for sure, going back to somewhere in the late 90s.

I think it's so sad it has to be this way now, it was not necessary at all. But history repeats itself because as I said in another topic, when humankind does not change their mind structure as a collective, nothing will really change. On the surface it's a different war in a different country in a different time, but beneath the surface no insight has been gained all this damn time.

I also strongly feel that the majority of people, in whatever country they may be, Russia, Ukraine, EU or the VS do not want this conflict, yet the governments of all those countries are just fucking shit and totally incapable of handling this. Bunch of nitwits.

[rodox_head]

Speaking from an American's perspective, I don't feel I have any leg to stand on to comment on this other than that this is a horrible tragedy.

Here's one Canadian's perspective:

Being who I am, a cause that has always been very important to me is the idea that culturally-similar countries should be models of peaceful cooperation and codependence. We live in a complex, diverse world of nations, which puts a unique onus on countries like Canada and America, Australia and New Zealand, Britain and Ireland, Germany and Austria, etc., to be models of kindness and understanding towards each other, because if WE can’t get along, what hope is there for anyone else?

This is what makes Russia’s cruel war of conquest against Ukraine so particularly repulsive. It will do nothing but foster hatred and fear between two peoples who, even amid the current conflict, are quick to emphasize their deep cultural similarities and intimate human bonds. Putin is encouraging people around the globe to hate and fear their neighbors, to believe that their worst conspiracy theories about “the other” are true.

Western Canada has a large population of people of Ukrainian heritage, and in the past I always found it a bit much how paranoid some Ukrainian people were about Russians, or how ostentatiously they would tell you that their grandfather “never spoke Russian” as a point of principle, and so on. Today, of course, it is people who think that way who seem justified, and kumbaya, let’s-all-get-along people like me who seem naive and ignorant.

How terrible it is to live in such a world.

[SamuraiDrifter]

"Throughout this crisis, the Western position has been to take a caricaturishly hard line against negotiation. All the way back in December Putin put together his initial, maximalist opening bid calling for, most prominently, a legal, written pledge that neighboring Ukraine and Georgia wouldn’t join NATO, for Washington reenter the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty Trump had recklessly pulled out of, and a host of less realistic demands about NATO activities in former Soviet republics. But it was the first item on the list that was what Putin was really after. Limits to NATO’s eastward drift, after all, had long been a sore point for not just Putin, but even pro-Western Russian elites for years, something various US officials and thinkers had once openly recognized as understandable.

So, knowing that Moscow was now threatening military action against Ukraine if its objections to NATO enlargement continued to be ignored, what did Western officials do? They refused to budge on the matter again and again as the months wore on, even as, absurdly, they acknowledged Ukraine wasn’t joining the alliance anytime soon, and they made clear they wouldn’t fight to defend it. It’s the geopolitical equivalent of a gunman waving a pistol at your friend, demanding that you rule out any future plans to climb Mount Everest, only for you to cross your arms and refuse."

With Putin’s Ukraine Incursion, Hawks in Washington Got Exactly What They Wanted. Feb 2022.

Ultimately, no matter which political regime wins in the battle to control and redefine Ukraine's borders and resources, the working people of both countries, whether hiding from shells in Kiev bomb shelters or languishing under US-imposed sanctions, lose.

[Gazebo4]

Right Samurai, a lot of people are either totally ignorant of that, or they willingly ignore this idiotic Western negotiation stance that was prior to all the shit that is happening now. One of the main reasons being that the Western media propaganda machine is working quite well on a lot of people, because people are so afraid they can be easily controlled. Or they have been asleep for so long they still think this is a fairytale with good and bad guys in it.

If you can be told what you can see or read
Then it follows that you can be told what to say or think
Defend your constitutionally protected rights
No one else will do it for you
Thank you

Which isn't to say the West is the only one at fault here of course, there are no good guys here on either side, only losers as you said. But there has not ever been a war where there were true victors in the end, because war doesn't work that way.

[2020k]

Do we have anyone from Twoism who lives in Ukraine or Russia? It doesn't look like we had any regulars from either country, but I'd like to know that everyone in our community is safe.

[Orbited insanitarium]

Do we have anyone from Twoism who lives in Ukraine or Russia? It doesn't look like we had any regulars from either country, but I'd like to know that everyone in our community is safe.

As far as I know, our long standing member Arvy is Lithuanian and his country is relatively near to Russia.
Apart from him, i can't think of any other twoismers.

[arvy]

Do we have anyone from Twoism who lives in Ukraine or Russia? It doesn't look like we had any regulars from either country, but I'd like to know that everyone in our community is safe.

As far as I know, our long standing member Arvy is Lithuanian and his country is relatively near to Russia.
Apart from him, i can't think of any other twoismers.

Thank bro, I'm fine. The weather here in Vilnius is nice and sunny. People seams like enjoying and going on with their lives.

[jcnporter]

This is a really informative piece about how the current situation came about and quite grim about where it is heading.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/03/ukraine-socialist-interview-russian-invasion-war-putin-nato-imperialism/

[fujee]

Thanks for that jcn, a good read.

[SamuraiDrifter]

This is a really informative piece about how the current situation came about and quite grim about where it is heading.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/03/ukraine-socialist-interview-russian-invasion-war-putin-nato-imperialism/

Really interesting article.

Found this part particularly noteworthy:

"So, the Maidan uprising was quickly hijacked by one of these fractions to streamline the popular discontent into this pro-EU pro-NATO straitjacket. A whole stratum of self-organized volunteers, paramilitary groups, NGOs, political adventurers, and intellectuals emerged after Maidan, who combined nationalism, neofascism, economic liberalism, and “Occidentalism” — a loose idea of the Western civilization. This was amplified by Western soft power and a network of NGOs — the familiar story.

So, the more the conflict progressed along these lines — with Russia also playing its role in amplifying this conflict with its own imperialist ideology — people’s perception was increasingly put in these very narrow confines: either the West or Russia."

[jcnporter]

This is definitely worth reading as well -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/was-it-inevitable-a-short-history-of-russias-war-on-ukraine

[SonicDimension]

If you want to point fingers at countries in the West which have enabled Putin in the last two decades, I think that countries like Germany should be at the top of the list. Putin never could have funded the modernization of his military or his massive foreign currency reserves without the income from oil and gas sales to the EU.

Of course, most of the blame lies with Putin and his supporters. By the way, some recent polls indicate that the majority of Russians support Putin’s ‘special military operation.’ Consider this next time you are feeling sorry for all the poor Russians languishing under sanctions. Russia is now a totalitarian fascist nation by any reasonable definition of those terms, Should we go out of our way to express pity for Hitler’s cheerleaders in the 1930’s who suffered economic hardship during and after WW II?

I for one am reserving my goodwill for people who take a stand against this murderous tyrant. If Russians will stand up to Putin, I salute them. But for the most part, Ukrainians are standing alone in fighting Putin’s orc army.

[rodox_head]

By the way, some recent polls indicate that the majority of Russians support Putin’s ‘special military operation.’ Consider this next time you are feeling sorry for all the poor Russians languishing under sanctions. Russia is now a totalitarian fascist nation by any reasonable definition of those terms, Should we go out of our way to express pity for Hitler’s cheerleaders in the 1930’s who suffered economic hardship during and after WW II?

I for one am reserving my goodwill for people who take a stand against this murderous tyrant. If Russians will stand up to Putin, I salute them. But for the most part, Ukrainians are standing alone in fighting Putin’s orc army.

Among young people, support for the war is significantly lower, according to the study. In the 18-to-24 age group, 29 percent indicated they back the war, while 39 percent were opposed. Peak support for the war, at 75 percent, was among respondents age 66 and older.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... -invasion/

I would hardly believe polls coming out of Russia right now to be entirely accurate anyway.

[SonicDimension]

I would hardly believe polls coming out of Russia right now to be entirely accurate anyway.

That’s a good point. And I do believe that younger people (especially in Moscow and St. Petersburg) are less inclined to support the war. But they need to show some courage and let their voices be heard. Why are Ukrainians the only ones making Molotov cocktails?

[SamuraiDrifter]

That’s a good point. And I do believe that younger people (especially in Moscow and St. Petersburg) are less inclined to support the war. But they need to show some courage and let their voices be heard. Why are Ukrainians the only ones making Molotov cocktails?

When the United States government invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, why were poor working people just trying to get by raising their families not making molotov cocktails to overthrow the state that was causing civilian deaths by the tens of thousands? The American government was doing something every bit as horrific as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Why weren't the American people showing backbone?

Obviously many were. Many were arrested and suffered horrific police violence. Many Russians are as well. And each one of them is hurt every bit as much under those sanctions. It's not something to flagrantly dismiss.

It is literally no longer possible to donate to the protestors being hauled away by police in the thousands in Russia because Visa, PayPal, and other major financial corporations - great global citizens who obviously care about human rights - have frozen their operations in the country.

Sanctions are a tool of the oligarchs and politicians to hurt each other through the working class. It's the very definition of using the poor as pawns in their geopolitical battles. I absolutely do not support the sanctions of my government against working-class people like me who happen to live in the borders of Russia. I support the Russians and Ukrainians (and Americans for that matter) rising up against their masters and not dying in bosses' wars ever again.

[SonicDimension]

The American government was doing something every bit as horrific as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Why weren't the American people showing backbone?

Americans were not trying to overthrow a democratically-elected government. Americans were not intentionally using a siege strategy, in which the objective is to terrorize and kill civilians to force capitulation. Americans were not spreading horrendous propaganda about how the Iraqi nation and Iraqi people have no right to exist. I agree that the Iraq war was a shameful mistake in US foreign policy, but I don’t think that it’s fair to compare that war to the Russia-Ukraine war. And I also don’t think that it is fair to compare the current US government to the Russian government.

Sanctions are a tool of the oligarchs and politicians to hurt each other through the working class. It's the very definition of using the poor as pawns in their geopolitical battles. I absolutely do not support the sanctions of my government against working-class people like me who happen to live in the borders of Russia. I support the Russians and Ukrainians (and Americans for that matter) rising up against their masters and not dying in bosses' wars ever again.

Okay, so what do you suggest? What is the alternative?

[SamuraiDrifter]

Americans were not trying to overthrow a democratically-elected government. Americans were not intentionally using a siege strategy, in which the objective is to terrorize and kill civilians to force capitulation. Americans were not spreading horrendous propaganda about how the Iraqi nation and Iraqi people have no right to exist. I agree that the Iraq war was a shameful mistake in US foreign policy, but I don’t think that it’s fair to compare that war to the Russia-Ukraine war. And I also don’t think that it is fair to compare the current US government to the Russian government.

Do you want to go over all the times the United States has overthrown democratically elected governments, and funded violent military coups to overthrow states that threatened their interests? Typically when it was a country that put the health and safety of their people over corporate profits?

Here's a list to start you off.

Do you really think it's "not fair" to compare the invasion of a country motivated by imperialism that killed over 70,000 civilians in the name of oil to what's happening right now?

The Iraq War wasn't a "mistake" in American policy, it was par for the course. We have more military bases across other countries than any other nation on Earth. Our wealth as a nation has been built off the invasion and exploitation of other people.

Okay, so what do you suggest? What is the alternative?

Direct aid to the working people of Ukraine and Russia, to help them fight off, in the first case, their invaders, and in the second case, their horrible authoritarian government.

Sympathetic working class people across the world helping their Russian counterparts is now impossible thanks to the sanctions.

[SonicDimension]

Do you really think it's "not fair" to compare the invasion of a country motivated by imperialism that killed over 70,000 civilians in the name of oil to what's happening right now?

Yes, the two wars are sufficiently different to make such comparisons seem ridiculous. The civilians were not targets in Iraq. It was not part of the US military’s plan to harm them. The Russian soldiers are shooting fleeing civilians, raping women, shelling hospitals and schools, firing on nuclear power plants, kidnapping activists and journalists, etc. The Russia-Ukraine war is not simply about imperialism. It is a genocide against the nation of Ukraine.

Direct aid to the working people of Ukraine and Russia, to help them fight off, in the first case, their invaders, and in the second case, their horrible authoritarian government.

Sympathetic working class people across the world helping their Russian counterparts is now impossible thanks to the sanctions.

‘Working class?’ What are you, a Marxist hipster? Maybe the idea of rebuilding the USSR appeals to you?

[SonicDimension]

Also, isn't it clear that the 'working class' Russians are the same people who are perpetrating hundreds of war crimes a day across Ukraine? And they're also the same ones who beat and torture peaceful protesters. Putin and the Russian elite are not directly assaulting anyone. It may be difficult to accept, but the fact is that there are a lot of ordinary Russians who are proudly fascist. Years of Kremlin propaganda has rotted their minds.