Semena Mertvykh: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Dayvan Cowboy
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SonicDimension wrote:Also, isn't it clear that the 'working class' Russians are the same people who are perpetrating hundreds of war crimes a day across Ukraine? And they're also the same ones who beat and torture peaceful protesters. Putin and the Russian elite are not directly assaulting anyone. It may be difficult to accept, but the fact is that there are a lot of ordinary Russians who are proudly fascist. Years of Kremlin propaganda has rotted their minds.

I hope your next proposal is not to evacuate all the women and children and then nuke Russia off the planet like I used to hear a lot regarding the middle east.
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Dayvan Cowboy
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SonicDimension wrote:‘Working class?’ What are you, a Marxist hipster? Maybe the idea of rebuilding the USSR appeals to you?

Yeah calling me, a working family man a "Marxist hipster" for talking about class is a great look. I'm gonna point out that this, right here, is where this debate left the realm of civility and good faith and entered the realm of childish name calling. Your assumption that anyone talking about issues of class "wants to resurrect the USSR" is a wild stretch and I think you know it.

I'm also going to point out that you:

a) Didn't address the US government's long history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and supporting fascist military coups in other countries, which has resulted in uncounted numbers of deaths.
b) Regurgitated nationalist, military-industrial complex propaganda about how the US military "doesn't target civilians," (shall I link you to the video Chelsea Manning leaked of US Army soldiers gunning down civilians and laughing about it?), and made vague excuses about why 70,000 dead Iraqi civilians doesn't count for much.
c) Amidst your constant apologism for US military imperialism, and your doing the work of billionaires like Trump by jumping to childish name calling for, literally, me saying the words "working class," you have still made no coherent argument for why it's okay to cut poor people who have no say in their authoritarian government away from the global economy and all foreign aid for the horrific actions of their military.

I'd further like to note that I have done absolutely no apologism for the horrific actions of Russia's government and military in the same way that you have for US invasions and state-sanctioned murder. My entire point is that the American government is doing terrible, awful things all the time, and nobody expects the poor who are just trying to make ends meet to rise up and overthrow the state on a dime, like affluent liberals and conservatives are now calling on Russians to do. It's a ridiculous double standard that's based in nationalism and propaganda.

Finally, I just want to underline the absolute absurdity of calling someone a "Marxist hipster" for talking about class in a country where, literally, half of people or more can't afford their damn healthcare. I guess I'm glad for you that that's not something you need to think about. But know that for many of us, this shit is a matter of life and death. My diabetic friend who works his ass off to make his boss richer can't afford his insulin. My brother and my friends, who work their asses off, are a hair's breadth away from being evicted. I work my ass off raising and providing for my family. Shit needs to change real fast or my kids are going to be growing up in a terrible situation. So yeah, you better believe I'm gonna talk about class, because it matters to me.

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New Seed
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SonicDimension wrote:
‘Working class?’ What are you, a Marxist hipster? Maybe the idea of rebuilding the USSR appeals to you?

i'm sorry but the comment "marxist hipster" makes me foam at the mouth with cringe, never say that again.
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In a return to civility, I'd like to thank Samurai Drifter for putting into proper words why I've felt so uncomfortable talking about this issue.
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rodox_head wrote:In a return to civility, I'd like to thank Samurai Drifter for putting into proper words why I've felt so uncomfortable talking about this issue.


In agreement with Samurai Drifter, personally I'd have hoped this topic would not have descended into berating and insult territory so easily.

@SonicDimension, if you want to get your point across, I would hope for you to use non-provocative methods that don't include calling someone a Marxist.
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twobytwo wrote:
SonicDimension wrote:
‘Working class?’ What are you, a Marxist hipster? Maybe the idea of rebuilding the USSR appeals to you?

i'm sorry but the comment "marxist hipster" makes me foam at the mouth with cringe, never say that again.


Why, do you put stock in this ideology?

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SamuraiDrifter wrote:
SonicDimension wrote:‘Working class?’ What are you, a Marxist hipster? Maybe the idea of rebuilding the USSR appeals to you?

Yeah calling me, a working family man a "Marxist hipster" for talking about class is a great look. I'm gonna point out that this, right here, is where this debate left the realm of civility and good faith and entered the realm of childish name calling. Your assumption that anyone talking about issues of class "wants to resurrect the USSR" is a wild stretch and I think you know it.

I'm also going to point out that you:

a) Didn't address the US government's long history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and supporting fascist military coups in other countries, which has resulted in uncounted numbers of deaths.
b) Regurgitated nationalist, military-industrial complex propaganda about how the US military "doesn't target civilians," (shall I link you to the video Chelsea Manning leaked of US Army soldiers gunning down civilians and laughing about it?), and made vague excuses about why 70,000 dead Iraqi civilians doesn't count for much.
c) Amidst your constant apologism for US military imperialism, and your doing the work of billionaires like Trump by jumping to childish name calling for, literally, me saying the words "working class," you have still made no coherent argument for why it's okay to cut poor people who have no say in their authoritarian government away from the global economy and all foreign aid for the horrific actions of their military.

I'd further like to note that I have done absolutely no apologism for the horrific actions of Russia's government and military in the same way that you have for US invasions and state-sanctioned murder. My entire point is that the American government is doing terrible, awful things all the time, and nobody expects the poor who are just trying to make ends meet to rise up and overthrow the state on a dime, like affluent liberals and conservatives are now calling on Russians to do. It's a ridiculous double standard that's based in nationalism and propaganda.

Finally, I just want to underline the absolute absurdity of calling someone a "Marxist hipster" for talking about class in a country where, literally, half of people or more can't afford their damn healthcare. I guess I'm glad for you that that's not something you need to think about. But know that for many of us, this shit is a matter of life and death. My diabetic friend who works his ass off to make his boss richer can't afford his insulin. My brother and my friends, who work their asses off, are a hair's breadth away from being evicted. I work my ass off raising and providing for my family. Shit needs to change real fast or my kids are going to be growing up in a terrible situation. So yeah, you better believe I'm gonna talk about class, because it matters to me.


What you are engaging in is called whataboutism. Your comparison of Russia’s atrocities with the actions of one of Ukraine’s allies (the U.S.) has the psychological effect of diminishing Russia’s guilt in this war. Russia and the Soviet Union have used this tactic in their propaganda for many years.

I never said that the US has not committed war crimes, or fought wars of conquest, etc. We all know the history. I merely said that the Iraq war is not comparable to the Russia-Ukraine war (for the reasons I mentioned). About war crimes- the US has committed atrocities, yes. But such actions in Iraq were not officially sanctioned and widespread, as they are in Ukraine. Most civilian casualties were due to collateral damage in airstrikes, as far as I know.

In response to point (c), I would again refer you to the abundant evidence (such as the WaPo article linked above), which indicates that most Russians are not opposed to this war. Have you ever spoken to Russians? You might be surprised how different they are from Americans. Most of them openly admire Putin. The fact that they are ‘poor’ does not mean that they are anti-authoritarian, as you seem to assume.

Sorry for name-calling, by the way. I have very strong emotions about this war, and I got carried away.

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SonicDimension wrote:
SamuraiDrifter wrote:
SonicDimension wrote:‘Working class?’ What are you, a Marxist hipster? Maybe the idea of rebuilding the USSR appeals to you?

Yeah calling me, a working family man a "Marxist hipster" for talking about class is a great look. I'm gonna point out that this, right here, is where this debate left the realm of civility and good faith and entered the realm of childish name calling. Your assumption that anyone talking about issues of class "wants to resurrect the USSR" is a wild stretch and I think you know it.

I'm also going to point out that you:

a) Didn't address the US government's long history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and supporting fascist military coups in other countries, which has resulted in uncounted numbers of deaths.
b) Regurgitated nationalist, military-industrial complex propaganda about how the US military "doesn't target civilians," (shall I link you to the video Chelsea Manning leaked of US Army soldiers gunning down civilians and laughing about it?), and made vague excuses about why 70,000 dead Iraqi civilians doesn't count for much.
c) Amidst your constant apologism for US military imperialism, and your doing the work of billionaires like Trump by jumping to childish name calling for, literally, me saying the words "working class," you have still made no coherent argument for why it's okay to cut poor people who have no say in their authoritarian government away from the global economy and all foreign aid for the horrific actions of their military.

I'd further like to note that I have done absolutely no apologism for the horrific actions of Russia's government and military in the same way that you have for US invasions and state-sanctioned murder. My entire point is that the American government is doing terrible, awful things all the time, and nobody expects the poor who are just trying to make ends meet to rise up and overthrow the state on a dime, like affluent liberals and conservatives are now calling on Russians to do. It's a ridiculous double standard that's based in nationalism and propaganda.

Finally, I just want to underline the absolute absurdity of calling someone a "Marxist hipster" for talking about class in a country where, literally, half of people or more can't afford their damn healthcare. I guess I'm glad for you that that's not something you need to think about. But know that for many of us, this shit is a matter of life and death. My diabetic friend who works his ass off to make his boss richer can't afford his insulin. My brother and my friends, who work their asses off, are a hair's breadth away from being evicted. I work my ass off raising and providing for my family. Shit needs to change real fast or my kids are going to be growing up in a terrible situation. So yeah, you better believe I'm gonna talk about class, because it matters to me.


What you are engaging in is called whataboutism. Your comparison of Russia’s atrocities with the actions of one of Ukraine’s allies (the U.S.) has the psychological effect of diminishing Russia’s guilt in this war. Russia and the Soviet Union have used this tactic in their propaganda for many years.

I never said that the US has not committed war crimes, or fought wars of conquest, etc. We all know the history. I merely said that the Iraq war is not comparable to the Russia-Ukraine war (for the reasons I mentioned). About war crimes- the US has committed atrocities, yes. But such actions in Iraq were not officially sanctioned and widespread, as they are in Ukraine. Most civilian casualties were due to collateral damage in airstrikes, as far as I know.

In response to point (c), I would again refer you to the abundant evidence (such as the WaPo article linked above), which indicates that most Russians are not opposed to this war. Have you ever spoken to Russians? You might be surprised how different they are from Americans. Most of them openly admire Putin. The fact that they are ‘poor’ does not mean that they are anti-authoritarian, as you seem to assume.

Sorry for name-calling, by the way. I have very strong emotions about this war, and I got carried away.


I can confirm this, yes. As someone who was born there and grew up during the 90's after the collapse of USSR. All that disarray with which people were left, criminal activity, inflation, two Chechen wars, drunk Eltsin and Coca Cola commercials on Tv's... what Putin did he raised Russia from her knees. So, common people will support Putin, not because this is against the West, but because Putin means strong Russia and this means better future for the people of his country.

Like it or not.
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SonicDimension wrote:What you are engaging in is called whataboutism. Your comparison of Russia’s atrocities with the actions of one of Ukraine’s allies (the U.S.) has the psychological effect of diminishing Russia’s guilt in this war. Russia and the Soviet Union have used this tactic in their propaganda for many years.


Whataboutism is a meaningless term used to narrow debate. Narrowing debate works in the favour of all governments who want to distract attention from structural oppressions.
While the circumstances of individual wars are obviously different, whether a war is started, in this case, because of an individual's sick imperialist fantasies or, in others, a claim to 'protect democracy', in the end the result looks pretty similar to the ordinary people on the ground being shot and bombed.
My first thought now when reading about a conflict, anywhere in the world, is to wonder if my reaction to it is based in solidarity with the ordinary people who just want to live their lives? Primarily, obviously, the direct victims of aggression, but also those who must deal with the wider fallout.
Am I seeing the war on a human level, an utter tragedy where the real war is waged by powerful, psychopaths and egotists on the powerless in both countries, or am I aligning along the lines drawn by those psychopaths and egotists, seeing myself in opposition to another powerless human being just because they live in another country, under another flag?
The arguments, blame and ultimate solutions look very different depending on which view you take.
Psychopaths, egotists, people lacking in empathy and who crave power, all see the world very differently from the rest of us. One thing is certain is if you chose to see the world through their eyes, there will always be another war around the corner.
I'm not necessarily a pacifist and absolutely support people's right to defend themselves, but not one war in history has ever been started en masse by the citizens of a country.
The small groups of people who wield power in the world decide that mass killings must happen, always for their own selfish reasons, always dressed up in nationalistic bullshit and it's always the ordinary person that, whether they agree or not, suffers anyway. Everything else is distraction.

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arvy wrote:As someone who was born there and grew up during the 90's after the collapse of USSR. All that disarray with which people were left, criminal activity, inflation, two Chechen wars, drunk Eltsin and Coca Cola commercials on Tv's... what Putin did he raised Russia from her knees. So, common people will support Putin, not because this is against the West, but because Putin means strong Russia and this means better future for the people of his country.

Like it or not.

Honestly, this is kinda analogous to the support for the Trump administration here in America. Half the voting population voted for him in 2020 and were willing to storm the Capitol building after the results. I live in a very right wing and Russian populated neighborhood and seeing someone with a "Fuck Biden" flag hanging out the back of their pickup truck is not an oddity.

I hate to say this, but this is more a case of Boomers being Boomers. From what face value I've gathered on Russia, the culture feels like America but in a bold font. Obviously this is just an outsiders perspective and I don't mean to diminish yours as youre completely right.
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jcnporter wrote:Whataboutism is a meaningless term used to narrow debate. Narrowing debate works in the favour of all governments who want to distract attention from structural oppressions.


Okay, so explain to me why bringing up the Iraq war (or any American-led war) is especially relevant to the Russia-Ukraine war. What is the point of this? Does it provide some insight into how Ukrainians can defeat their adversary? Does it help us to stop the rise of fascism in Russia? What exactly does American structural oppression teach you about this crisis? Maybe it would make more sense to discuss the oppression of Ukrainians and Russians in this case? Have you noticed that we are bogged down in a discussion about Iraq instead of discussing the topic at hand? This is whataboutism; this is distraction.

By the way, are you aware of the level of oppression in Russia now? It bears little resemblance to the situation in the US. No free speech, no free press, no freedom of assembly, etc. And it gets worse every day. What is happening there is unlike anything Americans have ever experienced (although people like Trump probably fantasized about it).

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jcnporter wrote:While the circumstances of individual wars are obviously different, whether a war is started, in this case, because of an individual's sick imperialist fantasies or, in others, a claim to 'protect democracy', in the end the result looks pretty similar to the ordinary people on the ground being shot and bombed.


Today, Russians bombed a theater in Mariupol where 1200 civilians were seeking shelter from constant shelling in the city. On the ground outside the front and rear of the theater, the word “CHILDREN” was painted in Russian in huge white block letters. By the way, Russians have encircled Mariupol, and the citizens have not had heat, water, or food for two weeks. It’s clear that Russia intends to make an example of this city.

I don’t recall any wars where the US did anything remotely resembling this.

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SonicDimension wrote:I don’t recall any wars where the US did anything remotely resembling this.

In 2015, the United States military bombed a well-marked hospital run by Doctors Without Borders and killed over 40 people, including children and charity medical staff.

I was incorrect about my earlier estimates of civilian casualties in the Iraq war. The correct number was oblver 110,000 people dead by direct violence, at a conservative estimate. This included women and children obliterated by bombs, in a war waged for oil, under obviously false pretenses.

The Vietnam War was absolutely full of atrocities where the United States military totally slaughtered entire villages of civilians:

-Mai Lai Massacre
-Operation Speedy Express (5,000-7,000 civilians murdered)
-Intentional killings of civilians by Tiger Force

The National Guard also massacred students protesting the war on 2 separate college campuses (Kent State and Jackson State), and the President of the United States called the victims "bums."

And many, many more.

Let's also not forget that the United States dropped two atomic bombs on civilian Japanese cities, outright killing hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children, and poisoning the ground with radiation that caused additional deaths from cancer for decades.

The United States is absolutely no stranger to engaging in the intentional, wholesale slaughter of civilians. Sure, the generals make excuses or rationalizations for it - just as the Russian leaders do.

My purpose in this is not whataboutism. If you'll recall, description of the atrocities regularly committed by the US military (which I'm forced to contribute to with my taxes) came because I was pointing out the double standard in Westerners stating that ordinary Russians should suffer under poverty-inducing egregious sanctions until they materialize a revolution against a brutal totalitarian state that will most likely kill them, while expecting no such thing of poor Americans when their government commits equally horrible atrocities.

I am in no way remotely excusing the horrific things the Russian army and Putin are doing. Frankly, I do hope they overthrow him, just as I hope the murderers and psychopaths running the US government and military eventually face a war crimes tribunal of the people.

What I'm saying is that my problem is with the Russian politicians commanding the army, not the poor who just happened to be born in a particular geographic area. Yes, I realize a lot of them support Putin. Many also don't. Even if a relatively small portion- say 30%- totally oppose the war, that's still millions and millions of people who hate what's going on being punished for something they have no control over, and that's not even considering the complex ways people do mental gymnastics to deal with the cognitive dissonance of their government doing something terrible. My solution is providing direct aid to those who are fighting back, both Ukrainians and Russians. This is something activists across the world are literally doing, and it's actively inhibited by sanctions imposed by the government and by major financial corporations who, meanwhile, are profiting off investments in blood diamonds, private prisons, and companies using sweatshop and child slave labor.

BTW, I appreciate the apology.

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"Why, do you put stock in this ideology?"
too dumb to know or care what your talking about but if your looking for an answer then it's no, i just generally found that cringy.
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SonicDimension wrote:Americans were not trying to overthrow a democratically-elected government.


Ukraine is far from a democratically-elected government. Maybe on paper, lol.
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I'm glad that Arnold spoke up on this yesterday, a very well meant and thought out address which spreads the knowledge that we know and sheds light on some new truths.
He seems to be one of the few celebrities in the public eye to show genuine care and compassion.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Schwarzenegger/status/1504426844199669762?cxt=HHwWhMCq8c6P5uApAAAA
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Orbited insanitarium wrote:I'm glad that Arnold spoke up on this yesterday, a very well meant and thought out address which spreads the knowledge that we know and sheds light on some new truths.
He seems to be one of the few celebrities in the public eye to show genuine care and compassion.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Schwarzenegger/status/1504426844199669762?cxt=HHwWhMCq8c6P5uApAAAA


https://youtu.be/RsDlemgSn9w
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Dayvan Cowboy
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arvy wrote:
phpBB [media]


Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
She does make some valid points about Arnold's commitment to the situation.

But I feel the words....

"Russia's special military operation has no purpose to destroy the Ukrainian people. It is aimed at the neo-nazi 'Skynet', which, over the years, has completely subjugated Ukraine and was just about to turn into an uncontrollable monster."

Might show more about her political standpoint on this rather than subjectivity critiquing his involvement.
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Glad to hear the "special military operation," (newspeak for "war,") has "no purpose to destroy the Ukrainian people." All the killing of civilians and shelling schools and apartment buildings is, uh, just an accident, I guess.

Thank god they're being "liberated," just like America "liberated" Iraq by bombing it into oblivion and robbing it blind.

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