05. Father And Son

[ColinWallis]

I'll just say I really, really do not like violence and oppression, mistreatment of women etc. I'm a big fan of freedom and equal rights for women, and yeah I'm pretty sure BoC agree. Plenty more exremely ugly horrible things I could add to that list but I'm just trying not to get banned for thinking freely about religion and ideology.

Crazy stuff, I know. Sorry y'all

[Waterbagel]

i'm just saying, we're not really known for being stalwart defenders of those ideals down here on the gulf coast US ourselves, yet senators from down here also love making grand proclamations about how 'sharia law' will never set foot on our shores etc. ergo, i don't think Islam is THE problem here

and it also smells like you're leaning a bit into misusing that voltaire idea ("To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize") to imply that because a few people are voicing disagreement with you, it means you're right. so right, in fact, that we'll have to ban you, etc

you're just kinda occasionally throwing around garbage, and some people are saying that it smells

less off-topic: i had a feeling that finding the source for all the non-garbled speech would make me sadder on later listens, and it did. but damn if it still doesn't completely whip, and i still sing along with it

[WATER_CAN-_-]

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord
Colossians 3:18

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[rubicon]

I think I was probably a little off, projecting perhaps!

But I do seriously doubt that BoC like Islam very much. Lmao.

What makes you say that? Genuinely curious. I guess you've admitted you're projecting, at least, but it doesn't seem wise to make those kinds of assumptions about people you don't know personally.

It feels like some mix of vibes and style from Geogaddi and MHTRTC, as well as some completely fresh sound.

Can definitely see where you're coming from here - more than anything I'm reminded of elements of some of the unreleased/bootlegged live tracks from between those two albums, something about the production on the drums and the bass sound is really reminiscent of what they were doing in that era.

You're genuinely curious what makes me think Boards of Canada doesn't like Islam eh?

That's hilarious honestly. Unfortunately I can't make that argument here because I'll be banned for speaking truth. But c'mon are you serious? Think a little harder.

People's brains apparently just fall out as soon as Islam is mentioned.

Yes, genuinely curious - I've never heard anything in their music or read anything in interviews with the band that would suggest they don't like Islam. Have you? If so, what was it?

[rubicon]

i had a feeling that finding the source for all the non-garbled speech would make me sadder on later listens, and it did. but damn if it still doesn't completely whip, and i still sing along with it

I'm really intrigued to know the source for the garbled speech - has anyone got anywhere with that?

Yep it's definitely a more bittersweet listen after seeing the origin video for the non-garbled bits, but that's a vibe I get from a lot of their music anyway so expected to some degree. Hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of it though, easily one of their most addictive tracks ever, cannot stop listening to it.

[green calx]

I didn't like that specific track at first, but now I think it's briliiant and hilarious.

If you take everything they said about religion in general there's no point in thinking they "like Islam".
Because for the fuck what would they need to like it in the first place? Some wishful thinking going on in some heads.

They create art, they fight for the free speech, this Allahu Akbar which left some of the fans unpleased and making some comments is a great example of the obscenity case mentioned in One Very Important Thought and the double standards.

There's a lot of mocking the religions on Inferno: whether it is catholics, hare krishna's, islam - and I think that's wonderful.
They are oldschool artists who will never try to reflect your personal beliefs or bite their tongues if they have something to say.

[rubicon]

As far as I've seen no one has claimed the band "like Islam" or said they were upset about the Alluha Akbar sample itself, just baffled/curious as to why that had been taken to mean the band dislike a particular religion. They're probably ambivalent (or maybe not, only they know for sure). It's a bit like saying they dislike children because they include garbled children's voices in many of their tracks.

I don't think they're necessarily mocking religion on this album or in any of their other work, but there's definitely something about its potential, and that of technology, drugs etc, to be a corrupting and manipulative influence in the wrong hands.

Probably an obvious thing to say at this point, but one of the things I love most about Boards is how they don't spell things out for us and leave everything wide open to interpretation - it's what keeps me coming back here and back to their records time and again.

[GeoDose]

As far as I've seen no one has claimed the band "like Islam" or said they were upset about the Alluha Akbar sample itself, just baffled/curious as to why that had been taken to mean the band dislike a particular religion. They're probably ambivalent (or maybe not, only they know for sure). It's a bit like saying they dislike children because they include garbled children's voices in many of their tracks.

I don't think they're necessarily mocking religion on this album or in any of their other work, but there's definitely something about its potential, and that of technology, drugs etc, to be a corrupting and manipulative influence in the wrong hands.

Probably an obvious thing to say at this point, but one of the things I love most about Boards is how they don't spell things out for us and leave everything wide open to interpretation - it's what keeps me coming back here and back to their records time and again.

All good points!

They're just very interested in religion... that's my take on it.
You can take a religion course without believing in Jesus, for example.

The brothers have written more than one track themed around the Branch Davidians, does that mean they hate/despise all Branch Davidians? No, it means they're interested in it and the history behind it.

Why would they personally go and meet Amo Bishop Roden and spend time with her if they HATE Davidians and HATE cults? They're just interested in cults.

The idea that they hate Islam just because they occasionally reference Islam is absurd. There is good and bad involved with all religions and even cults; it's this push/pull of light and dark that probably intrigues BoC so much. The fact that there is evil mixed in with the good is why we need to be wary when wading into any religion.

[green calx]

Probably an obvious thing to say at this point, but one of the things I love most about Boards is how they don't spell things out for us and leave everything wide open to interpretation - it's what keeps me coming back here and back to their records time and again.

And that is well said.
I personally think that from this point of view: "We are not Satanists, Christians, or pagans. We are not religious at all." you would be rather closer to the point where you would express cons of something. Like with the words "your brother, or mother or father or sister could be your enemy", scale that to the whole world and humanity, we're one species killing ourselves for such thing as the religion... And we see that this shit still happens even in our "developed" countries.

I remember some interview where Marcus propably said something that he would rather see the conflicts were solved with, for example sports games... Utopia.

[magrathea_ultima]

The problem is when these things come with either a political agenda or indoctrination, those will always create catastrophe.
I am an atheist, and a pretty vocal one at that, and I've devoted most of my life to science and the scientific method.
To not know and seek out, discover and learn is where humans show their best side.

I have no problem with people doing whatever they want at home, at the temple, church, etc. , but don't come put it in my face with the garb, the thought-terminating clichés, etc.

The song at hand, to me is tragic as it exposes the erosion of critical thinking. Indoctrination, Spiritual Abuse, Coercive Persuasion or Mind Control and all the usual tricks in the book of how to manipulate individuals or groups, countries, aggregates.

The father in this case, opposing the benevolent father figure of God(s) is trying to reason his son to regain that critical thinking and it is not a fight that he will win because there is no where in the armor of the indoctrinated where you can grasp and reach in. It is tragic really, and that is why I think this song both fascinates and to some degree alienates some listeners.

I find it interesting that BoC opposes the Father reasoning to his son in a very human way, and the Father figure God and his son, Christ. Two very opposing stories. The son is the tool, religion is the method, and God/Father (or any religious authority hacking its way in) is the puppeter.

The song ultimately, to me, starkly opposes both uses of the method. One to control and use/abuse, the other to reason, interact, and in the end become closer together.

For the record, this is one of my favorite tracks on Inferno.

[Wildfire]

Yes, genuinely curious - I've never heard anything in their music or read anything in interviews with the band that would suggest they don't like Islam. Have you? If so, what was it?

While they have never directly expressed an active dislike for any religion, i don't think it will take much critical thought to understand why they are probably not a fan of Islam.

I think it's safe to assume that the brothers are pro liberty, anti censorship, pro freedom of expression. Can we all agree on that? I don't think One Very Important Thought was some random, innocuous sample for the hell of it. it was a political comment.

Now, regardless of whether the Allahu Akbar sample is a direct mockery of Islam or not, let's have a really hard think about why they maybe have an issue with a religion where you literally RISK YOUR LIFE by simply drawing an image of their god and publishing it. A religion where women are encouraged (sometimes with the threat of death) to cover themselves up in public. A religion where the founder was a pedophile and a warlord. A religion that, for some reason, doesn't seem to be a fan of democracy (3 out of the 56 Muslim countries are 'democracies'). A religion that, for some reason, doesn't legally recognize same-sex marriages in ANY of their 56 countries. A religion that, in certain countries, allows raped women to be stoned to death in public as a punishment, while their abusers go free. A religion that legally allows the physical beating of women in the home if the husband feels it's deserved (Sharia Law). I could literally go on and on and on.

Sure, all religions have their extremists, but even moderate Islam is fairly right wing and bigoted - A few years ago there was a survey conducted on UK muslims that was printed in the Guardian, a shocking 40% believed that the act of homosexuality should be punishable with a prison sentence for instance. How exactly is that compatible with a liberal western democracy?

Anyway I digress, I doubt the sample is a mockery of Islam, but I think it's safe to say that anything they have alluded to about their politics thus far is very much incompatible with an ideology like Islam.

[squid]

It's just bizarre to me that the one second on this album that potentially references Islam (I'm still not convinced it's even saying that) is getting so much focus. When there's so much more material unambiguously related to Christianity, cults, Hare Krishna, etc. But thats just the culture war times we live in I suppose. And I guess I'm now contributing to it lol.

I'm an agnostic atheist if it makes any difference. But BoC have always come across as having pretty nuanced takes on these topics. Like, if they can find light, dark and nuanced grey area about controlling, manipulative, dangerous cults, I'm pretty sure they could do the same for a religion with 2 billion adherents of various denominations.

[WATER_CAN-_-]

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[rubicon]

As far as I've seen no one has claimed the band "like Islam" or said they were upset about the Alluha Akbar sample itself, just baffled/curious as to why that had been taken to mean the band dislike a particular religion. They're probably ambivalent (or maybe not, only they know for sure). It's a bit like saying they dislike children because they include garbled children's voices in many of their tracks.

I don't think they're necessarily mocking religion on this album or in any of their other work, but there's definitely something about its potential, and that of technology, drugs etc, to be a corrupting and manipulative influence in the wrong hands.

Probably an obvious thing to say at this point, but one of the things I love most about Boards is how they don't spell things out for us and leave everything wide open to interpretation - it's what keeps me coming back here and back to their records time and again.

All good points!

They're just very interested in religion... that's my take on it.
You can take a religion course without believing in Jesus, for example.

The brothers have written more than one track themed around the Branch Davidians, does that mean they hate/despise all Branch Davidians? No, it means they're interested in it and the history behind it.

Why would they personally go and meet Amo Bishop Roden and spend time with her if they HATE Davidians and HATE cults? They're just interested in cults.

The idea that they hate Islam just because they occasionally reference Islam is absurd. There is good and bad involved with all religions and even cults; it's this push/pull of light and dark that probably intrigues BoC so much. The fact that there is evil mixed in with the good is why we need to be wary when wading into any religion.

Spot on!

Probably an obvious thing to say at this point, but one of the things I love most about Boards is how they don't spell things out for us and leave everything wide open to interpretation - it's what keeps me coming back here and back to their records time and again.

I remember some interview where Marcus propably said something that he would rather see the conflicts were solved with, for example sports games... Utopia.

Yeah I remember that too - agree. Arena Americanada comes to mind!

Yes, genuinely curious - I've never heard anything in their music or read anything in interviews with the band that would suggest they don't like Islam. Have you? If so, what was it?

While they have never directly expressed an active dislike for any religion, i don't think it will take much critical thought to understand why they are probably not a fan of Islam.

I think it's safe to assume that the brothers are pro liberty, anti censorship, pro freedom of expression. Can we all agree on that? I don't think One Very Important Thought was some random, innocuous sample for the hell of it. it was a political comment.

Now, regardless of whether the Allahu Akbar sample is a direct mockery of Islam or not, let's have a really hard think about why they maybe have an issue with a religion where you literally RISK YOUR LIFE by simply drawing an image of their god and publishing it. A religion where women are encouraged (sometimes with the threat of death) to cover themselves up in public. A religion where the founder was a pedophile and a warlord. A religion that, for some reason, doesn't seem to be a fan of democracy (3 out of the 56 Muslim countries are 'democracies'). A religion that, for some reason, doesn't legally recognize same-sex marriages in ANY of their 56 countries. A religion that, in certain countries, allows raped women to be stoned to death in public as a punishment, while their abusers go free. A religion that legally allows the physical beating of women in the home if the husband feels it's deserved (Sharia Law). I could literally go on and on and on.

Sure, all religions have their extremists, but even moderate Islam is fairly right wing and bigoted - A few years ago there was a survey conducted on UK muslims that was printed in the Guardian, a shocking 40% believed that the act of homosexuality should be punishable with a prison sentence for instance. How exactly is that compatible with a liberal western democracy?

Anyway I digress, I doubt the sample is a mockery of Islam, but I think it's safe to say that anything they have alluded to about their politics thus far is very much incompatible with an ideology like Islam.

I'd imagine most people think of themselves as pro-liberty, anti-censorship, pro-freedom of expression to some degree (at least superficially, ie if asked "is liberty good?", "is censorship bad?", "is freedom of expression good?"). I include myself in that to a certain extent, but personally find it too simplistic to start from those sentiments and end up straightforwardly actively anti-Islam or anti-any other belief. Religion is too complex for it to be that black and white for me.

Obviously those things you've listed are horrific and should have no place anywhere - atrocities can be ascribed to fanatics at the extreme ends of any beliefs, but hopefully it's understood most Muslims are normal people who find all that as horrendous as we do, in exactly the same way that not all Christians are white nationalists, not all Jewish people support the actions of the Israeli government, etc.

For the record and if it wasn't already clear, I'm not staunchly pro- or anti-any religion at all - was just curious to find out were Colin Wallis was coming from, as I've said a couple of times. I think it was you Wildfire who said in another thread this week that you see the band as 'live and let live' types - that's exactly where I'm coming from.

It's just bizarre to me that the one second on this album that potentially references Islam (I'm still not convinced it's even saying that) is getting so much focus. When there's so much more material unambiguously related to Christianity, cults, Hare Krishna, etc. But thats just the culture war times we live in I suppose. And I guess I'm now contributing to it lol.

I'm an agnostic atheist if it makes any difference. But BoC have always come across as having pretty nuanced takes on these topics. Like, if they can find light, dark and nuanced grey area about controlling, manipulative, dangerous cults, I'm pretty sure they could do the same for a religion with 2 billion adherents of various denominations.

Amen

My head is spinning a bit from how we've somehow inferred Boards Of Canada are anti-Islam from a vanishingly brief sample of someone saying 'Alluha Akbar' when the track containing that sample is literally 3 minutes of some poor guy pleading with his son to leave a Christian cult.

Wary of this topic getting completely detailed, I just want to talk about how much Father and Son completely bangs. At least we can all agree on that!

[Wildfire]

My head is spinning a bit from how we've somehow inferred Boards Of Canada are anti-Islam from a vanishingly brief sample of someone saying 'Alluha Akbar' when the track containing that sample is literally 3 minutes of some poor guy pleading with his son to leave a Christian cult.

Sorry, had a bit of a rant above but just to be clear, I don't think the sample means anything and I don't think BOC are specifically 'anti islam' but out of all the mainstream religions, it seems to go against their ethos more than any other, due to the inherent intolerance.

[rubicon]

No worries, thanks for clarifying - no need to apologise.

I don't think there's necessarily any inherent intolerance in Islam or other religions, just down to how they're interpreted and practiced by groups and individuals. But we can agree to disagree there.

[Wildfire]

No worries, thanks for clarifying - no need to apologise.

I don't think there's necessarily any inherent intolerance in Islam or other religions, just down to how they're interpreted and practiced by groups and individuals. But we can agree to disagree there.

For me the problem is that intolerance is phrased in such a way in the Old Testament and Quran, that it's very difficult to take them any other way but at face value. I'm sure some scholars will insist that it's all metaphor and contextual of course.

Anyway, I'm not even sure why I jumped into this discussion, been watching far too much Christopher Hitchens recently lol.

[magrathea_ultima]

Anyway, I'm not even sure why I jumped into this discussion, been watching far too much Christopher Hitchens recently lol.

Who doesn't like a good Hitchslap! I love the man, sad that he was taken from us way too soon.

[fractalz42]

I'll just say I really, really do not like violence and oppression, mistreatment of women etc. I'm a big fan of freedom and equal rights for women, and yeah I'm pretty sure BoC agree. Plenty more exremely ugly horrible things I could add to that list but I'm just trying not to get banned for thinking freely about religion and ideology.

Crazy stuff, I know. Sorry y'all

I hear what you are saying buddy. I won't gaslight you. You aren't wrong, but maybe you left things exposed that others will try and gang up on you for. I know what you mean though.

[♄ope keeper]

The greatest misunderstanding, says Mike where he left off, "is of our humour. Most people miss the irony. They take everything we say literally." Almost apologetic, he says they're just interested in old cultures, religious excesses, scientific problems, everything that deviates from the norm.