Gender

[nightGoat]

Turquoise70: It's kind of a foreign idea to even question gender, to me. Because I can relate to not being Joe Six Pack, and most of my close friends have been girls - but that doesn't seem odd to me.

I think the confusion comes from outside, and defining your particular shade of gray is less important than being comfortable in your own skin.

I shudder at the thought of a man lopping off his ding dong...

[saurus]

Cole you look like a pro in those clothes

[Aesthetics]

Much respect for bringing the subject on and even more for doing what makes you happy Cole.

Love the painting

[Mexicola]

Good on you Cole. I'd imagine it must have taken some nerve?

Also strangely proud that in our little corner of the internet we've such gatthered such open, honest and warm-hearted people and that you you've felt you can share your journey with us.

[T. Intel]

I have massive respect for Cole, Machinea, and all the others who are brave enough to break the gender binary. I am completely comfortable the way I am, but if I weren't, I don't know if I could muster the courage to do break the norm and do something about it. Cheers to both of you.

[Waterbagel]

Also, I guess it was just me, but...I was completely unaware that apparently shaving some/all parts of your body was somehow a "queer" or "gender binary breaking" thing to do. I've always found pubic/body/facial hair to be quite disgusting and I usually take care of it as soon as possible, no orientation/gender connotations in my mind. Nobody's ever given me shit for it either. Weird.

Maybe they all thought you're a swimmer, heh

[turquoise70]

Thank you, thank you everyone who has replied - I wasn't -totally- sure what to expect when I busted open this topic, but like I said at the outset, Twoism has a tendency to give topics more thought and consideration and care than most other places I know of. I'm not surprised, but I am very pleased, at the responses people have given - and I'm flattered in particular with the personal compliments Y'all are too nice to me. I do think I fill out that outfit pretty well though.

However, what you're wearing in those photos is ENTIRELY acceptable. You look good. It's great that you were able to find something to wear that makes you feel happy, without grossing out people who aren't used to visually seeing gender binaries be broken.

Heh, thanks man. It's unfortunate that when people think of "breaking the gender binary", the first thing that comes to mind are ULTRA FABULOUS DRAG QUEENS. I'm not trying to shock anyone with the way I look

And actually, you're right - shaving parts of your body isn't a gender-demolishing act. Boys and girls can do it without having anything especially unconventional about their gender identity.

Note to self and others: if you shave your legs, do it with some good moisturizing cream. I wound up with a rash of nasty razor burn a few days after.

[Magrathea]

Note to self and others: if you shave your legs, do it with some good moisturizing cream. I wound up with a rash of nasty razor burn a few days after.

Nivea skin care does wonders if you use the shaving gel/cream they have. No, really!

[turquoise70]

Note to self and others: if you shave your legs, do it with some good moisturizing cream. I wound up with a rash of nasty razor burn a few days after.

Nivea skin care does wonders if you use the shaving gel/cream they have. No, really!

Thanks for the tip! I'll check them out on Amazon

[T. Intel]

Nivea products have worked well for me, too. Not for the legs (I don't shave my legs), but for the face.

[machinea]

Note to self and others: if you shave your legs, do it with some good moisturizing cream. I wound up with a rash of nasty razor burn a few days after.

Nivea skin care does wonders if you use the shaving gel/cream they have. No, really!

That and use a good razor. I finally started using the men's razors for the nethers, I couldn't deal with those lady shavers any more, they barely cut it for legs much less anything else. And on that note I'm going to go to listen to some Fad Gaget... Shave It! Such a great song..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjScSw_P ... re=related

[iwishimademovies]

Been WAY to long since I popped in to the Boards, but this topic piqued my interest because of a thought i had to day whilst entering the bathroom at my work (a non-descript University building).

I just thought it was odd that we have, for as long I have known, and for as long as pop-culture has propagated the divide, gone to the bathroom in separate facilities.

Sure, there are the mixed bathrooms of small restaurants, or gas stations, or the shared space of Port-o-Potties, but they are certainly the minority.

All it got me thinking about was when and who decided that we should be separate, in that when it comes time to piss or shit, we would need such different spaces. I mean, with the exception of the urinal (which had to have been invented by a man), aint nothing different between bathrooms.

I don't know. Two more bits. Like anything, gender is subjective, but unfortunately, society at large tends to dictate what norms are produced, manifested, and marketed. I mean, even GaGa's "Born this Way" smacks of pandering (in a capitalist sense).

Anyway, Turquoise, you do what you want (anybody for that matter) if it makes you feel like you.

[OverTheHorizonRadar]

Interestingly enough we were just talking about gender in my anthropology class, though not really anything that applies to Cole. Some interesting things mentioned:

-Baby boys under the age of 18 months apparently are 300 times more likely to get a head concussion than a baby girl just because the way parents treat them is different than they would for a baby girl. Apparently.

-My teacher said he lived with some sort of tribe for a year (I forgot what they were called) where the child's gender was not decided until later in it's life. He said they also didn't name it for a year or so because not many babies survived that long.

-Also told was a story about a couple who have raised their child without revealing it's gender to anyone while keeping it ambiguous. I need to search online and see if I can find it, sounds interesting. The child is in preschool or something at this point I think.

Anyways, hope this provides some food for thought at least. Also, good luck to you Cole, here's to hoping you keep on living happy with your own choices.

[pointlessdude]

Nice turquoise, you look really gorgeous

I don't think I've reflected long enough about this, but as far as I know I've always wanted to be a girl. It's a matter of appreciation, and though I know it isn't fair, still can't stress enough my admiration to who I believe they're the most beautiful beings on Earth, sexually and spiritually. I mean, just by looking at myself in the mirror I feel sort of disgusted with my hairy body, my fucked up skin and my rough features, and so I am with most men I see. I wish I could have women's feet. You just can't compare.

Guess all we are somehow influenced by this man archetype rooted in society, even unconsciously. As for myself, I've always had a girly way of moving and posing, but when I get into the so-called social situations, which are not many by the way, I always try to play ''by the rules'' so that I don't get people's attention.

Also wanted to say I'm really enjoying this forum lately, just by reading people's opinions. They seem to restore my hopes.

cheers to y'all

[Guido]

Since I was a toddler I wanted to look like a bum or Allen Ginsberg. I love masculinity. I also think women are (or can be) the most beautiful beings on Earth, I can pretty much hypnotize myself by staring at a picture of a beautiful girl, it's like poetry. But rather than wanting to be one I want to be WITH one, standing behind her while holding her tighs, gently rubbing my beard against her face, positively overwhelmed by the sharp contrast of our respective genders she calls my name in a high-pitched, trembling voice and I kiss her on the cheek, and with a coarse voice, octaves lower, I say "I love you". Life is Roygbiv and I am the bassline and she is the poetic, epiphanizing melody, you know. I feel quite comfortable with my gender.

[turquoise70]

I don't think I've reflected long enough about this, but as far as I know I've always wanted to be a girl. It's a matter of appreciation, and though I know it isn't fair, still can't stress enough my admiration to who I believe they're the most beautiful beings on Earth, sexually and spiritually. I mean, just by looking at myself in the mirror I feel sort of disgusted with my hairy body, my fucked up skin and my rough features, and so I am with most men I see. I wish I could have women's feet. You just can't compare.

Guess all we are somehow influenced by this man archetype rooted in society, even unconsciously. As for myself, I've always had a girly way of moving and posing, but when I get into the so-called social situations, which are not many by the way, I always try to play ''by the rules'' so that I don't get people's attention.

Definitely know that feeling! I always felt like I kind of got the "short end of the stick" when it comes to my biological sex. As I stated in my original post, it's not that I'm a woman in the body of a man, it's more just that I feel pitifully confined by social pressures to project a manly image with the body I have. I've always thought traditionally feminine approaches to beauty - fair skin, trimmed/shaved body hair, long flowing hairstyles, and a generally elegant and graceful body manner - were more beautiful, and I envy girls for being socially permitted to flaunt those aspects of who they are. I believe that I contain those aspects too, and have every right to flaunt them even if most people just sort of laugh uncomfortably at it. They laugh because they think they're seeing a man act like a woman, but it's not true I'm a Cole acting like a Cole.

A good friend of mine said something like, "Well, my dad was a guy, my mom was a girl, I guess I must be some kind of hybrid!" I like that. I believe there is both girlness and boyness within me, and I don't want to let the insecurities of society determine which of those elements of who I am gets expressed outwardly.

Since I was a toddler I wanted to look like a bum or Allen Ginsberg. I love masculinity. I also think women are (or can be) the most beautiful beings on Earth, I can pretty much hypnotize myself by staring at a picture of a beautiful girl, it's like poetry. But rather than wanting to be one I want to be WITH one, standing behind her while holding her tighs, gently rubbing my beard against her face, positively overwhelmed by the sharp contrast of our respective genders she calls my name in a high-pitched, trembling voice and I kiss her on the cheek, and with a coarse voice, octaves lower, I say "I love you". Life is Roygbiv and I am the bassline and she is the poetic, epiphanizing melody, you know. I feel quite comfortable with my gender.

There is nothing wrong with having a manly gender identity! Comfort with your identity is the whole point of exploring these issues. Although it's important not to misuse words, too - for instance, you're comfortable with your gender identity, and you also appear to be comfortable with your biological sex. Some people are quite comfortable with their gender, but not their biological sex. If you had been born with a very effeminate body, or a full-on woman's body, you probably would not be comfortable since your gender appears to be so strongly male.

I guess I'm pretty fortunate in the grand scheme of things - my body has some pretty androgynous features. If I had been born with a body that would become a huge, barrel-chested, wooly man-body, I would be really unhappy. I have many feminine features I can choose to accentuate. That pleases me.

[machinea]

Cole I totally get what you are saying about Cole being Cole. I actually was an American Studies major with an emphasis on Gender Theory in my undergrad work and now teach Chinese Medicine and Asian Body Work Theory to students.

I have a lecture that goes over the concepts of Yin/Yang and one of the things I truly like about the Chinese Taoist model is that there isn't a split left/right, day/night etc. there can be no Yin without Yang and No Yang without Yin and each has some of the other in it. They are never truly separate. Its not so much about turning everything into a feminine or masculine article its more about how everything in the universe has some of each including gendered beings. Even the spirit is a tad physical while the body is somewhat ephemeral.

No one here, if they met me in person, would think I was pushing up against the boundaries of gender conformity. Its been mostly an internal thing, I just was a big tom boy, and girls are more allowed to partake in male styles of dress than the other way around. (See my avatar ) I've had some good straight guy friends who dressed in sarongs and did their toenails because thats just who they were, one of them was even a jock but he was also a painter. I just have always been more comfortable with artsy 'circus' folk for that very reason. People just being themselves is awesome and that includes people who are really comfortable being solidly traditionally masculine or feminine.

I remember stepping out of santa cruz to the nearby town for a 4th of july celebration and it was an extremely heterosexual yuppi bar. And by that I mean it was like the straight people were in drag but didn't know it. The women were over the top, done up giggle bots and the men were walking around with imaginary lat syndrome, all puffed up trying to look bigger than they were. I was so hideously uncomfortable in that space. Give me over the top, Priscilla Queen of the Desert, gay drag any day of the week because the thing is, the queers know they are "playing" at it.

I do wish that for those who are truly uncomfortable in their skin as the gender they are born to had it easier when wanting to switch. Expensive and painful and coming up short particularly with the FTM. It's just still easier to turn someone into a female versus turning someone into a male.

[turquoise70]

Absolutely, machinea! I've been a big fan of Taoist thought since around 2007 when I first read the Tao Te Ching. I often bring up the concept of yin and yang when I'm making allegories about how I view my gender. I'm a human, I constitute a whole of both maleness and femaleness, and I enjoy embracing each for different reasons.

And I also know exactly what you mean about the atmosphere in that bar. Some groups of people are painfully uptight, to the point where you can feel the tension radiating from them like there's an elephant in the room that belongs to everyone and none of them will talk about it.

Speaking of FTM, there's been some buzz about Chaz Bono lately being cast in Dancing With The Stars, which has been interesting to see. There was, of course, a public outcry (I have no idea how much of the viewer audience these people actually constitute) from people who mostly showed that they don't understand what it manes to be transgendered in the first place. I've read some articles covering the topic which used obscuring/confusing language when referring to Chaz, such as that he "changed his gender". And if it grates on me, you just know the person who made that comic s7409651 posted would be having conniption fits.

[turquoise70]

My whole approach to this is predicated on one concept, really: The idea that our social concept of gender is an outmoded, clunky, and inaccurate model for viewing ourselves. A fair amount of where we get our ideas of what makes us who we are is over 2,000 years old and hasn't been significantly re-thought since we were throwing rocks at each other in caves. Case in point: as recently as the 20th century, it was COMMON to believe that homosexuality was a mental disorder.

Today, it's common to believe that one's biology determines one's gender, and that there are two genders to choose from: male or female. It's time for a drastic update to this mode of thinking, one that reflects reality a lot more clearly. I don't believe in a universe where God created a man and a women, wound them up and set them in motion, and that they're "broken" if they do anything but go straight to each other and start humping. I believe in a universe where every example of a species is a new reflection on what it means to be part of that species. The idea that we all follow some "blueprint" in becoming what we are, whether that blueprint is genetic or Biblical, is wrong-headed. In a field of flowers with 6 petals, a flower with 5 petals is not "wrong", nor is it "broken". It's a new idea. Time will tell whether that mutation is beneficial for the flower or not, but human beings are far more capable and complex than flowers. Each of us is a horde of new ideas, and each of us represents a new way of looking at and experiencing life.

To get more specific to the idea of gender, what this means is there is no reason for me to behave in a fashion deemed "manly" based on what other people who were born with penises are doing. Let's strip away the labels from these ways of acting: forget "feminine" and forget "masculine" and look only at the behaviors themselves. Pick and choose what you want. Flip your wrist if you want to. Wear a dress if you want to. Play lacrosse and rugby if you want to. It would be impractical to suggest we throw out concepts of gender entirely; that just isn't going to happen. But take a moment, in your mind, to realize privately, that you are free to choose whatever is most appealing to you.

Most of the things that constitute "manliness" are not only not appealing to me, but downright objectionable. It just so happens that I fancy femininity more. Hypothetically speaking, if I lived in some bizarro culture in which biological males shaved their legs, braided their hair, adorned themselves with pretty jewelry and swung their hips as they walked, and were socialized to be emotionally sensitive and open about their feelings toward one another, my gender identity might actually be a little closer to "normal" by those standards. And that includes body image - if biological males were concerned with being shapely and elegant instead of buff and large, if they were concerned more with the beauty of their body than with what sort of physical feats they could accomplish with it (Not to spurn any male or female athletes, here, but I'm not one of either!). I like descriptors like "petite" and "cute" and "pretty", and I like it on the rare occasions when I'm recognized and praised for being those things. It kind of breaks my heart to be perceived as a "weak" man, because I'm not trying to be a man at all. I'm trying to be a pretty thing.

[Jonse]

God damn it, I see in shows and all around me these stupid parents, having kids and dressing them in a dress if it's a girl, overalls if it's a guy. They're like one year old. They buy the boys some action figures/GI Joe horse shit and the girls some Barbie horse shit, and they show them pretty flowers and drop the boy on his head repeadetly, tell them what and whatnot they should like. For the love of god, buy your four year old some god damn Legos or something, some other gender neutral toys, and let them decide their interests and gender roles themselves. Shit.